Katharine Hepburn, Humphrey Bogart and Grace Kelly just 3 of the AFI Top 50 Screen Legends
Sometime in 2011 we decided it would be fun to do a Ultimate Movie Rankings (UMR) movie page on the AFI Top 50 Screen Legends. The AFI list of the top 50 greatest screen legends in American film history, included 25 male and 25 female stars. The list was unveiled by the American Film Institute on June 15, 1999. The American Film Institute defined an “American screen legend” as an actor or a team of actors during the classic film era with a significant screen presence in American feature-length films whose screen debut occurred in or before 1950, or whose screen debut occurred after 1950 but whose death has marked a completed body of work.
When we started doing these pages 6 of the 50 Screen Legends were still alive. Sadly Elizabeth Taylor, Shirley Temple and Lauren Bacall passed away before we could finish our quest. Kirk Douglas, Sidney Poitier and Sophia Loren are still alive and well. Douglas will be 100 later this year…and just last week we received an autograph from that screen legend…but that is another story. After spending the last 5 years looking at the AFI list…we can say we like the list…BUT….there is one massive injustice. How Olivia de Havilland did not make the list makes no sense to us….ok done ranting.
The first AFI screen legend we researched and wrote about was Clark Gable….the last AFI screen legend we did was Mary Pickford. Between the Gable and Pickford pages….5 years passed, we changed our website home 2 times, we took a statistical look at 2,267 movies and we saw our classic movie pages become the most popular on our website….easily kicking our current movie star pages to the curb. So we decided to put all 50 of our AFI Screen Legends on one page. Each link below will take you to that star’s UMR page….where you will find box office grosses, reviews and awards for every single movie that star made during their career. John Wayne and Robert Mitchum are tied with the most movies (83) while James Dean has the least (3 movies).
AFI’s Top 25 Screen Legend Actors….with links to our movie pages on the Screen Legend
1. Humphrey Bogart 58 Movies Ranked….from Casablanca (1942) to Swing Your Lady (1938)
2. Cary Grant 58 Movies Ranked… from North by Northwest (1959) to Born To Be Bad (1934)
3. James Stewart 73 Movies Ranked Mr. Smith Goes to Washington(1939) to Big Sleep(1978)
4. Marlon Brando 37 Movies Ranked….from The Godfather (1972) to Christopher Columbus (1992)
5. Fred Astaire 39 Movies Ranked The Towering Inferno (1974) to The Amazing Dobermans (1976)
6. Henry Fonda 81 Movies Ranked… On Golden Pond (1981) to City on Fire (1979)
7. Clark Gable 63 Movies Ranked….from Gone With The Wind (1939) to Parnell (1937)
8. James Cagney 61 Movies Ranked….from Yankee Doodle Dandy (1942) to Boy Meets Girl (1938)
9. Spencer Tracy 53 Movies Ranked….from Boy’s Town (1938) to Up the River (1930)
10. Charles Chaplin 12 Movies Ranked….from The Kid (1921) to A Countess from Hong Kong (1967)
11. Gary Cooper 67 Movies Ranked….from Sergeant York (1941) to Fighting Caravans (1931)
12. Gregory Peck 53 Movies Ranked To Kill a Mockingbird(1962) to Amazing Grace & Chuck(1987)
13. John Wayne 83 Movies Ranked….from True Grit (1969) to Brannigan (1975)
14. Laurence Olivier 48 Movies Ranked….from Rebecca (1940) to Inchon (1982)
15. Gene Kelly 40 Movies Ranked….from Anchors Aweigh (1945) to Viva Knievel! (1977)
16. Orson Welles 75 Movies Ranked….from Citizen Kane (1941) to Treasure Island (1972)
17. Kirk Douglas 71 Movies Ranked….from Spartacus (1960) to Diamonds (1999)
18. James Dean 3 Movies Ranked….from East of Eden (1955) to Giant (1956)
19. Burt Lancaster 67 Movies Ranked From Here to Eternity (1953) to Executive Action (1973)
20. Marx Brothers 18 Movies Ranked….from Horse Feathers (1932) to The Story of Mankind (1957)
21. Buster Keaton 28 Movies Ranked….from The Cameraman (1928) to The Intruder (1936)
22. Sidney Poitier 46 Movies Ranked….from In the Heat of the Night (1967) to Fast Forward (1985)
23. Robert Mitchum 83 Movies Ranked….from The Longest Day (1962) to Matilda (1978)
24. Edward G. Robinson 67 Movies Ranked 10 Commandments(1956) to BiggestBundleofAll(1968)
25. William Holden 66 Movies Ranked….from The Bridge on the River Kwai (1957) to Ashanti (1979)
America Film Institutes’ Top 25 Screen Legend Actress and UMR’s Links That Rank All Of Their Movies.
1. Katharine Hepburn 43 Movies Ranked..On Golden Pond (1981) to Grace Quigley (1985)
2. Bette Davis 79 Movies Ranked…from All About Eve (1950) to Wicked Stepmother (1989)
3. Audrey Hepburn 24 Movies Ranked…from My Fair Lady (1964) to The All Laughed (1981)
4. Ingrid Bergman 32 Movies Ranked..Gaslight(1944) to Files of Mrs. Basil E.Frankweiler(1973)
5. Greta Garbo 24 Movies Ranked.. from Ninotchka (1939) to Torrent (1928)
6. Marilyn Monroe 23 Movies Ranked…from Some Like It Hot (1959) to Ladies of the Chorus (1948)
7. Elizabeth Taylor 47 Movies Ranked..Who’s Afraid of Va.Woolf?(1966) to A Little Night Music(1977)
8. Judy Garland 31 Movies Ranked…from A Star Is Born (1954) to I Could Go On Singing (1963)
9. Marlene Dietrich 30 Movies Ranked…from Shanghai Express (1932) to Just A Gigolo (1978)
10. Joan Crawford 72 Movies Ranked…from Mildred Pierce (1945) to The Law of the Range (1928)
11. Barbara Stanwyck 72 Movies Ranked.. Double Indemnity (1944) to The Bride Walks Out (1936)
12. Claudette Colbert 48 Movies Ranked..It Happened One Night(1934) to Royal Affairs(1954)
13. Grace Kelly 11 Movies Ranked.. from The Country Girl (1954) to Green Fire (1954)
14. Ginger Rogers 54 Movies Ranked.. from Kitty Foyle (1940) to The Groom Wore Spurs (1951)
15. Mae West 12 Movies Ranked.. from She Done Him Wrong (1933) to Sextette (1978)
16. Vivien Leigh 15 Movies Ranked.. from Gone With The Wind (1939) to Dark Journey (1937)
17. Lillian Gish 31 Movies Ranked.. from Intolerance (1916) to Hambone and Hillie (1983)
18. Shirley Temple 37 Movies Ranked.. from Since You Went Away (1944) to Honeymoon (1947)
19. Rita Hayworth 35 Movies Ranked.. from Gilda (1946) to The Naked Zoo (1970)
20. Lauren Bacall 36 Movies Ranked.. from To Have and Have Not (1944) to Diamonds (1999)
21. Sophia Loren 29 Movies Ranked.. from El Cid (1961) to Firepower (1979)
22. Jean Harlow 22 Movies Ranked.. from The Public Enemy (1931) to Riffraff (1936)
23. Carole Lombard 39 Movies Ranked from My Man Godfrey (1936) to It Pays To Advertise(1931)
24. Mary Pickford 31 Movies Ranked.. from The Little Princess (1917) to Rosita (1923)
25. Ava Gardner 40 Movies Ranked.. from The Killers (1946) to City on Fire (1979)
The amount of hours that went into this quest is mind boggling….but now that it is over….gotta admit…damn glad we did it. Of course that brings out the question…What Now?
174 thoughts on “AFI Top 50 Screen Legends”
STEVE/FLORA/PIERRE/BOB COX – MIAI CULPA ! to all of you.
1 Although I was having too much fun arguing with Steve to admit it, I had forgotten about Lana Turner when I drew up my initial female Legends list and until I saw Bruce’s composite list this morning I had also overlooked Susan Hayward.
2 So whilst my earlier selection of Dorothy Lamour and Hedy Lamarr were very respectable choices fine-tuning obliges me to drop Hedy and Dottie and substitute Lana and Susan in my 25 and I supply in the next post a revised list to that effect.
3 As Bruce’s composite summary is valuable it would be worthwhile his amending it and I apologise for asking him to do so but as Baby Houseman’s father said in Dirty Dancing “When I’m wrong I SAY I’m wrong.”
4 Sorry Steve and Bruce still no room for Ava and Myrna in the 25 and Steve will be disappointed that I’ve also dropped Jocelyn, and in fact Steve THAT’s IT – the wagons are now circled and I will defend this final list until death!
BOB REVISED FEMALE LEGENDS TOP 25
1/Marilyn Monroe
2/Joan Crawford
3/Katharine Hepburn
3/Bette Davis – joint with Katie
5/Judy Garland
6/Ingrid Bergman
7Doris Day
8/Elizabeth Taylor
9/Audrey Hepburn
10/Mary Pickford
11/Shirley Temple
12/ Ginger Rogers
13/Deborah Kerr
14/Rita Hayworth
15/Jean Harlow
16/Carole Lombard
17/Claudette Colbert
18/Irene Dunne
19/Grace Kelly
20/Lana Turner substitute
21/Barbara Stanwyck
22/Marlene Dietrich
23/Susan Hayward – substitute
24/Jane Russell
25/Esther Williams
SELECTED OTHERS IN MY TOP 50 ACTRESSES FOR ADDED VA:LUE
26/Dorothy Lamour
27/Hedy Lamarr
28/Deanna Durbin –Durbin and Young were very prolific stand-alone performers
30/Loretta Young
32/Myrna Loy –Need I say any more?
41/Ava Gardner –There! –Steve has the last say
A better list than your last Bob. We still only match on 18 though.
Susan Hayward was a good choice, did I include her? Let me check Bruce’s master list… oh dear she’s not on my list. Who should I knock out from my chart and let Susan in? Let me think… Doris or Hedy? Hedy or Doris? tick tock tick tock… Hedy has to go, and she’s off your list too… my my my Delilah! 🙂
So here is my revised list with Susan in place of Hedy –
Lauren Bacall
Ingrid Bergman
Claudette Colbert
Joan Crawford
Bette Davis
Doris Day
Marlene Dietrich
Greta Garbo
Ava Gardner
Judy Garland
Jean Harlow
Susan Hayward
Rita Hayworth
Audrey Hepburn
Katharine Hepburn
Grace Kelly
Vivien Leigh
Carole Lombard
Myrna Loy
Marilyn Monroe
Ginger Rogers
Barbara Stanwyck
Elizabeth Taylor
Lana Turner
Mae West
Glad you let Lana in. Bob, you still have b-movie queen Jane Russell on your list, Ava or Myrna would be better substitutes… whaddya think? eh? [Bob screams] Esther Williams? Really? Swimming stars now are we? How about Sonja Henie, skating star? Is she in the top 40? Put Lamour back, all is forgiven. [Bob explodes] 😉
1 Glad you better like the revised list. Susan had a great run in the late 1940s/1950s, with big hits, stand alone movies and an Oscar for I Want to live and 4 other Oscar Nominations as well. She also had 3 Golden Globe wins and once I remembered Lana’s existence I had to yield ground to you in respect of her as she had an enormous number of stand-alone movies and good overall Cogerson adjusted box office grosses of almost $6 billion.
2 Normally the fine tuning can be difficult but since all of my my initial 25 were already determined it was obvious that to include Lana and Susan the bottom two earlier selections simply had to be dropped Usually when you tell WH that you feel somebody important has been left out of his lists he challenges you to say whom you would drop off the list to allow the substitution. Next time he asks you that about a male list tell him Cary Grant should be omitted and that should shut him up!
To Bob and Steve:
Just a cotton-picking minute here…when I saw you had both included Hedy Lamarr in your top 25, I cautiously expressed a note of polite surprise, implicitly suggesting you had both erred in a questionable direction, but pleading ignorance and willing to learn from the masters. Now, you both decide to callously chop poor Miss Lamarr off your top 25 without giving her a second thought, in order to replace her with Susan Hayward, and in the case of Bob, Lana Turner. In substance, I personally agree with your revised choices, but I’m not sure about the process here. Many of these stars have roughly equivalent legendary status, and I’m sure we will all wake up one morning wishing to have placed Gregory Peck ahead of James Cagney, feeling sorry for Betty Grable, suddenly remembering how much we like Fred MacMurray, or trying to make amends with the ghost of Jean Arthur. But at some point, we have to stand by our lists as they are and defend the power of convictions (however strange they may seem to others)! I mean, is Bruce going to need to revise his brand new page of classic actresses by UMR commenters, only one day after making it? If so, I may want to have a second go at my lists at some point 😉
1 HI PHIL I am fond of quoting the line from Juror No 3 [Lee J Cobb] in 12 Angry Men (1957) that “The boy in the grey flannel suit here has been bouncing back and forward like a rubber ball all night,” by which that Juror meant that Juror No 12 [the William Holden-like Robert Webber] was forever changing his mind as to the guilt or innocence of the accused every time someone else on the jury panel came up with a fresh argument.
2 Assuming you are serious I am sorry if my tweaking of my actresses list has disappointed you but the changes were not as a result of any dithering or equivocation on my part but the consequence of my not conducting my research well enough in the first place to come up with the full comprehensive list of which actresses I conclusively regarded as contenders for thee top 25 placings., Therefore the substitution of Hayward and Turner does not represent a change of mind but the correction of a genuine oversight.
3 I saw no harm in the corrections as we were merely lightheartedly exchanging opinions and were not involved in a serious COMPETITION where there were deadlines and other rules in place to prevent the disadvantaging of other “candidates” I did apologise to Bruce for making the changes after he had produced his composite summary of our lists but perhaps that apology was premature as you will see from his actor’s list and my earlier post this morning that HE has now moved the goal posts around the sources that he has included so I feel that he has eschewed the scope for proper cross-gender comparison of rankings albeit of just a friendly nature in the last resort..
4 Although I could probably do it better for him I will leave Steve to make his own peace with you and all that remains is for me to wish you a good weekend.
Hi Bob,
Of course, I was joking when I questioned your right to change your mind and I had fun doing it. After all, 11 jurors in 12 Angry Men did change their mind and this was certainly a good thing! By the way, I like your quote from the film, and there are a number of exquisite lines from that movie I sometimes recall. One of them, also from Lee J. Cobb, I tell my wife when one of our kids (soon getting into their teenage years) exasperates me: “Rotten kids, you work your heart out!!” (and I am only half-joking).
Anyway, thanks for your detailed explanation, which is fully acceptable and appreciated! Hope Steve will also find it worth it to make his peace with me 🙂
Phil, it’s all in fun, think of the Top 25 as a work in progress. I’m already thinking of replacing Mae West with another actress. [Phil shakes his head]
I see you and Steve have revised your lists to include Lana Turner and Susan Heyward. I don’t know whether Bruce will alter his chart or not. In any case, I have decided to let my list stand as is despite having left Lana Turner off and the fact that I am a fan of hers. I find the chart fascinating.
COPY OF FEMALES LEGENDS LIST ORIGINALLY ADDRESSED TO FLORA/STEVE/PHIL/PIERRE
1/Marilyn Monroe
2/Joan Crawford
3/Katharine Hepburn
3/Bette Davis – joint with Katie
5/Judy Garland
6/Ingrid Bergman
7Doris Day
8/Elizabeth Taylor
9/Audrey Hepburn
10/Mary Pickford
11/Shirley Temple
12/ Ginger Rogers
13/Deborah Kerr
14/Rita Hayworth
15/Jean Harlow
16/Carole Lombard
17/Claudette Colbert
18/Irene Dunne
19/Grace Kelly
20/Barbara Stanwyck
21/Marlene Dietrich
22/Jane Russell
23/Esther Williams
24/Dorothy Lamour
25/Hedy Lamarr and Jocelyn Brando jointly
BOB to STEVE/PHIL/FLORA/PIERRE
April 17, 2018 at 4:41 am
These are the perceptions that I formed of the 25 Greatest female movie Legends of all time during my “coming of age “as a cinemagoer in the 1950s and 1960s. Many might feel the one striking omission is Garbo.
However although a fine actress I thought she was at times too contrived and her box office in Hollywood films was frankly abysmal compared to most other listed Legends [just $2 billion adjusted domestic for Greta according to Bruce][so though she was of course much superior to the rather banal Gabor sisters I thought that to some extent she was like them “famous for being famous” and a great poseur but of course I will in the end yield to Flora’s female perception in the matter. There is one for fun wind-up in the list and it is targeted at Steve. See if you can spot it but otherwise the list is very serious albeit subjective of course.
1/Marilyn Monroe
2/Joan Crawford
3/Katharine Hepburn
3/Bette Davis – joint with Katie
5/Judy Garland
6/Ingrid Bergman
7Doris Day
8/Elizabeth Taylor
9/Audrey Hepburn
10/Mary Pickford
11/Shirley Temple
12/ Ginger Rogers
13/Deborah Kerr
14/Rita Hayworth
15/Jean Harlow
16/Carole Lombard
17/Claudette Colbert
18/Irene Dunne
19/Grace Kelly
20/Barbara Stanwyck
21/Marlene Dietrich
22/Jane Russell
23/Esther Williams
24/Dorothy Lamour
25/Hedy Lamarr and Jocelyn Brando jointly
Thanks Bob for reposting this list. I had a long comment to send but my computer turned off and I lost it.
I thought that Jocelyn Brando’s inclusion was a joke by the tone of your and Steve’s comments.
Greta Garbo’s exclusion from this list is indeed the most glaring. I do not see her as famous for being famous. She was a fascinating actress who held her own against a strong cast in The Grand Hotel.
As to the names on this list you added that were not on the AFI list, I respect your choice as to your own preferences. I am familiar with the careers of all of them. Of these, my favourites are Jane Russell and Irene Dunne.
1 HI MO It is my opinion that Ava is in fact one of those who is more famous for being famous than for what she left on the screen and her acting ability whilst OK wasn’t of such calibre that it could offset her relatively poor overall box office.
2 Both Katie and Bette head most people’s lists and they were not famed for their beauty but for their acting skills and each had stand-alone commercial successes unlike Ava, and indeed Katie had hits right up to old age whereas Gardner’s career declined after the 1950s
3 However my point was not by any means that Dottie was a definitive choice but that she had a record that made her a respectable contender and as so had a number of others it is in the end down to personal choice.
4 However whilst you may not have meant your words to be condescending I interpreted them as indicating that you thought that as I favoured Lamour I was making a choice that belonged to some kind of parallel universe, a choice that made you “chuckle”
6 Lana whom you also mentioned and I think you have included in your own list wasn’t deemed Legend enough to be in the AFI list either so they too must have made some of their decisions in that strange universe if I have correctly read your logic.
3 As I say it’s largely a matter of how one interprets the known facts and what weight one gives to various parts of potential criteria but the factual basis for two of your points escapes me
(1) The suggestion that Jane Russell’s heyday career was built on B movies. I’m puzzled at where you got that information from but if you look at her movies on Bruce’s list and then examine the production notes for them on the internet you will see that most of them, and certainly the major hits, were A movies whatever else one thinks of them. However if you have different evidence please let me have it.
(2) You also state that producers would have preferred Lana and Ava to Betty Grable and certainly I would again be pleased to examine any concrete evidence that you have to that effect but the following list of Betty’s entries in the Quigley annual polls of the Top 10 most popular actresses do not seem to overall support your contentions and indeed Fox executives put out a public statement that they used the huge profits from her films to finance prestige projects that wouldn’t otherwise have been made.
According to Wikipedia Betty has been the joint most popular actress in the entire history of movies to date along with Barbra Streisand. On the other hand I could not find either Lana’s or Ava’s name on for example any of the Quigley’s Top 10 lists t – which Grable virtually owned in her heyday.
Bob, you can produce all the facts, figures and quotes you want but you’ll never convince me Dorothy Lamour was a greater female star than Ava Gardner in Hollywoods golden age. Maybe in your ‘parallel universe’, not mine.
When you first mentioned you added an actress to your Top 25 list as a joke I dismissed Brando’s sister and thought you meant Lamour, that’s why I chuckled. 🙂
Let’s agree to disagree on the matter. My latest video is one of your favorite actors that should cheer you up a bit. 😉
(1) Yeah I realise now we were at cross purposes about the “chuckling” but not about THE Chuck of course!
(2) Still I’m impressed that you were able to regard Sis Mumbles as the serious entry. She must have made more of an impression on screen than I thought. Oh what a talented family!
(3) When I hear that people are determined to dismiss “facts and figures” I sadly come to the conclusion that The Donald is having more of an effect on sensible citizens than I had thought.
(4) However “A man convinced against his will, remains unconvinced still,” and anyway a lot of the fun would go out of it if I actually did convince you because that fun lies in not convincing someone but in the trying to convince. That’s why I’ll probably have fun until the end of my days attempting to convince WH that Myrna is not the Box Office Queen – he’ll never give ground on that one!
(5) Anyway I’m half through my post on Burt part 1 so catch up with you again tomorrow – meanwhile please Ava good night’s sleep.
I cannot seem to find your list of Top 25 Actresses even though I can read Steve’s responses to your list and your responses to him. Could you or someone else please post your list again.
HI FLORA
1 I agree that this page is getting so convoluted that it’s hard to find things. I attach in my next post a copy of my females list which you will see was jointly addressed to you when I posted it originally.
2 The listing of Jocelyn Brando was of course a joke.
STEVE/FLORA/PIERRE/BOB COX – MIAI CULPA ! to all of you.
1 Although I was having too much fun arguing with Steve to admit it, I had forgotten about Lana Turner when I drew up my initial female Legends list and until I saw Bruce’s composite list this morning I had also overlooked Susan Hayward.
2 So whilst my earlier selection of Dorothy Lamour and Hedy Lamarr were very respectable choices fine-tuning obliges me to drop Hedy and Dottie and substitute Lana and Susan in my 25 and I supply in the next post a revised list to that effect.
3 As Bruce’s composite summary is valuable it would be worthwhile his amending it and I apologise for asking him to do so but as Baby Houseman’s father said in Dirty Dancing “When I’m wrong I SAY I’m wrong.”
4 Sorry Steve and Bruce still no room for Ava and Myrna in the 25 and Steve will be disappointed that I’ve also dropped Jocelyn, and in fact Steve THAT’s IT – the wagons are now circled and I will defend this final list until death!
BOB REVISED FEMALE LEGENDS TOP 25
1/Marilyn Monroe
2/Joan Crawford
3/Katharine Hepburn
3/Bette Davis – joint with Katie
5/Judy Garland
6/Ingrid Bergman
7Doris Day
8/Elizabeth Taylor
9/Audrey Hepburn
10/Mary Pickford
11/Shirley Temple
12/ Ginger Rogers
13/Deborah Kerr
14/Rita Hayworth
15/Jean Harlow
16/Carole Lombard
17/Claudette Colbert
18/Irene Dunne
19/Grace Kelly
20/Lana Turner substitute
21/Barbara Stanwyck
22/Marlene Dietrich
23/Susan Hayward – substitute
24/Jane Russell
25/Esther Williams
SELECTED OTHERS IN MY TOP 50 ACTRESSES FOR ADDED VA:LUE
26/Dorothy Lamour
27/Hedy Lamarr
28/Deanna Durbin –Durbin and Young were very prolific stand-alone performers
30/Loretta Young
32/Myrna Loy –Need I say any more?
41/Ava Gardner –There! –Steve has the last say
A better list than your last Bob. We still only match on 18 though.
Susan Hayward was a good choice, did I include her? Let me check Bruce’s master list… oh dear she’s not on my list. Who should I knock out from my chart and let Susan in? Let me think… Doris or Hedy? Hedy or Doris? tick tock tick tock… Hedy has to go, and she’s off your list too… my my my Delilah! 🙂
So here is my revised list with Susan in place of Hedy –
Lauren Bacall
Ingrid Bergman
Claudette Colbert
Joan Crawford
Bette Davis
Doris Day
Marlene Dietrich
Greta Garbo
Ava Gardner
Judy Garland
Jean Harlow
Susan Hayward
Rita Hayworth
Audrey Hepburn
Katharine Hepburn
Grace Kelly
Vivien Leigh
Carole Lombard
Myrna Loy
Marilyn Monroe
Ginger Rogers
Barbara Stanwyck
Elizabeth Taylor
Lana Turner
Mae West
Glad you let Lana in. Bob, you still have b-movie queen Jane Russell on your list, Ava or Myrna would be better substitutes… whaddya think? eh? [Bob screams] Esther Williams? Really? Swimming stars now are we? How about Sonja Henie, skating star? Is she in the top 40? Put Lamour back, all is forgiven. [Bob explodes] 😉
HI STEVE
1 Glad you better like the revised list. Susan had a great run in the late 1940s/1950s, with big hits, stand alone movies and an Oscar for I Want to live and 4 other Oscar Nominations as well. She also had 3 Golden Globe wins and once I remembered Lana’s existence I had to yield ground to you in respect of her as she had an enormous number of stand-alone movies and good overall Cogerson adjusted box office grosses of almost $6 billion.
2 Normally the fine tuning can be difficult but since all of my my initial 25 were already determined it was obvious that to include Lana and Susan the bottom two earlier selections simply had to be dropped Usually when you tell WH that you feel somebody important has been left out of his lists he challenges you to say whom you would drop off the list to allow the substitution. Next time he asks you that about a male list tell him Cary Grant should be omitted and that should shut him up!
To Bob and Steve:
Just a cotton-picking minute here…when I saw you had both included Hedy Lamarr in your top 25, I cautiously expressed a note of polite surprise, implicitly suggesting you had both erred in a questionable direction, but pleading ignorance and willing to learn from the masters. Now, you both decide to callously chop poor Miss Lamarr off your top 25 without giving her a second thought, in order to replace her with Susan Hayward, and in the case of Bob, Lana Turner. In substance, I personally agree with your revised choices, but I’m not sure about the process here. Many of these stars have roughly equivalent legendary status, and I’m sure we will all wake up one morning wishing to have placed Gregory Peck ahead of James Cagney, feeling sorry for Betty Grable, suddenly remembering how much we like Fred MacMurray, or trying to make amends with the ghost of Jean Arthur. But at some point, we have to stand by our lists as they are and defend the power of convictions (however strange they may seem to others)! I mean, is Bruce going to need to revise his brand new page of classic actresses by UMR commenters, only one day after making it? If so, I may want to have a second go at my lists at some point 😉
1 HI PHIL I am fond of quoting the line from Juror No 3 [Lee J Cobb] in 12 Angry Men (1957) that “The boy in the grey flannel suit here has been bouncing back and forward like a rubber ball all night,” by which that Juror meant that Juror No 12 [the William Holden-like Robert Webber] was forever changing his mind as to the guilt or innocence of the accused every time someone else on the jury panel came up with a fresh argument.
2 Assuming you are serious I am sorry if my tweaking of my actresses list has disappointed you but the changes were not as a result of any dithering or equivocation on my part but the consequence of my not conducting my research well enough in the first place to come up with the full comprehensive list of which actresses I conclusively regarded as contenders for thee top 25 placings., Therefore the substitution of Hayward and Turner does not represent a change of mind but the correction of a genuine oversight.
3 I saw no harm in the corrections as we were merely lightheartedly exchanging opinions and were not involved in a serious COMPETITION where there were deadlines and other rules in place to prevent the disadvantaging of other “candidates” I did apologise to Bruce for making the changes after he had produced his composite summary of our lists but perhaps that apology was premature as you will see from his actor’s list and my earlier post this morning that HE has now moved the goal posts around the sources that he has included so I feel that he has eschewed the scope for proper cross-gender comparison of rankings albeit of just a friendly nature in the last resort..
4 Although I could probably do it better for him I will leave Steve to make his own peace with you and all that remains is for me to wish you a good weekend.
Hi Bob,
Of course, I was joking when I questioned your right to change your mind and I had fun doing it. After all, 11 jurors in 12 Angry Men did change their mind and this was certainly a good thing! By the way, I like your quote from the film, and there are a number of exquisite lines from that movie I sometimes recall. One of them, also from Lee J. Cobb, I tell my wife when one of our kids (soon getting into their teenage years) exasperates me: “Rotten kids, you work your heart out!!” (and I am only half-joking).
Anyway, thanks for your detailed explanation, which is fully acceptable and appreciated! Hope Steve will also find it worth it to make his peace with me 🙂
Phil, it’s all in fun, think of the Top 25 as a work in progress. I’m already thinking of replacing Mae West with another actress. [Phil shakes his head]
I see you and Steve have revised your lists to include Lana Turner and Susan Heyward. I don’t know whether Bruce will alter his chart or not. In any case, I have decided to let my list stand as is despite having left Lana Turner off and the fact that I am a fan of hers. I find the chart fascinating.
PHIL
My 4.05 am post this morning was meant for you in particular.
COPY OF FEMALES LEGENDS LIST ORIGINALLY ADDRESSED TO FLORA/STEVE/PHIL/PIERRE
1/Marilyn Monroe
2/Joan Crawford
3/Katharine Hepburn
3/Bette Davis – joint with Katie
5/Judy Garland
6/Ingrid Bergman
7Doris Day
8/Elizabeth Taylor
9/Audrey Hepburn
10/Mary Pickford
11/Shirley Temple
12/ Ginger Rogers
13/Deborah Kerr
14/Rita Hayworth
15/Jean Harlow
16/Carole Lombard
17/Claudette Colbert
18/Irene Dunne
19/Grace Kelly
20/Barbara Stanwyck
21/Marlene Dietrich
22/Jane Russell
23/Esther Williams
24/Dorothy Lamour
25/Hedy Lamarr and Jocelyn Brando jointly
BOB to STEVE/PHIL/FLORA/PIERRE
April 17, 2018 at 4:41 am
These are the perceptions that I formed of the 25 Greatest female movie Legends of all time during my “coming of age “as a cinemagoer in the 1950s and 1960s. Many might feel the one striking omission is Garbo.
However although a fine actress I thought she was at times too contrived and her box office in Hollywood films was frankly abysmal compared to most other listed Legends [just $2 billion adjusted domestic for Greta according to Bruce][so though she was of course much superior to the rather banal Gabor sisters I thought that to some extent she was like them “famous for being famous” and a great poseur but of course I will in the end yield to Flora’s female perception in the matter. There is one for fun wind-up in the list and it is targeted at Steve. See if you can spot it but otherwise the list is very serious albeit subjective of course.
1/Marilyn Monroe
2/Joan Crawford
3/Katharine Hepburn
3/Bette Davis – joint with Katie
5/Judy Garland
6/Ingrid Bergman
7Doris Day
8/Elizabeth Taylor
9/Audrey Hepburn
10/Mary Pickford
11/Shirley Temple
12/ Ginger Rogers
13/Deborah Kerr
14/Rita Hayworth
15/Jean Harlow
16/Carole Lombard
17/Claudette Colbert
18/Irene Dunne
19/Grace Kelly
20/Barbara Stanwyck
21/Marlene Dietrich
22/Jane Russell
23/Esther Williams
24/Dorothy Lamour
25/Hedy Lamarr and Jocelyn Brando jointly
Thanks Bob for reposting this list. I had a long comment to send but my computer turned off and I lost it.
I thought that Jocelyn Brando’s inclusion was a joke by the tone of your and Steve’s comments.
Greta Garbo’s exclusion from this list is indeed the most glaring. I do not see her as famous for being famous. She was a fascinating actress who held her own against a strong cast in The Grand Hotel.
As to the names on this list you added that were not on the AFI list, I respect your choice as to your own preferences. I am familiar with the careers of all of them. Of these, my favourites are Jane Russell and Irene Dunne.
HI FLORA
1 I bow to your judgement regarding Greta Garbo.
2 They say that many a true word is spoken in jest and it seems that Steve does regard Jocelyn Brando as a serious contender.
3 Anyway as always great exchanging posts with you and hopefully we can do so again before too long.
1 HI MO It is my opinion that Ava is in fact one of those who is more famous for being famous than for what she left on the screen and her acting ability whilst OK wasn’t of such calibre that it could offset her relatively poor overall box office.
2 Both Katie and Bette head most people’s lists and they were not famed for their beauty but for their acting skills and each had stand-alone commercial successes unlike Ava, and indeed Katie had hits right up to old age whereas Gardner’s career declined after the 1950s
3 However my point was not by any means that Dottie was a definitive choice but that she had a record that made her a respectable contender and as so had a number of others it is in the end down to personal choice.
4 However whilst you may not have meant your words to be condescending I interpreted them as indicating that you thought that as I favoured Lamour I was making a choice that belonged to some kind of parallel universe, a choice that made you “chuckle”
6 Lana whom you also mentioned and I think you have included in your own list wasn’t deemed Legend enough to be in the AFI list either so they too must have made some of their decisions in that strange universe if I have correctly read your logic.
3 As I say it’s largely a matter of how one interprets the known facts and what weight one gives to various parts of potential criteria but the factual basis for two of your points escapes me
(1) The suggestion that Jane Russell’s heyday career was built on B movies. I’m puzzled at where you got that information from but if you look at her movies on Bruce’s list and then examine the production notes for them on the internet you will see that most of them, and certainly the major hits, were A movies whatever else one thinks of them. However if you have different evidence please let me have it.
(2) You also state that producers would have preferred Lana and Ava to Betty Grable and certainly I would again be pleased to examine any concrete evidence that you have to that effect but the following list of Betty’s entries in the Quigley annual polls of the Top 10 most popular actresses do not seem to overall support your contentions and indeed Fox executives put out a public statement that they used the huge profits from her films to finance prestige projects that wouldn’t otherwise have been made.
• 1942 – 8th (US)
• 1943 – 1st (US),
• 1944 – 4th (US),
• 1945 – 4th (US),
• 1946 – 9th (US)
• 1947 – 2nd (US)
• 1948 – 2nd (US)
• 1949 – 7th (US),
• 1950 – 4th (US)
• 1951 – 3rd (US)
According to Wikipedia Betty has been the joint most popular actress in the entire history of movies to date along with Barbra Streisand. On the other hand I could not find either Lana’s or Ava’s name on for example any of the Quigley’s Top 10 lists t – which Grable virtually owned in her heyday.
Bob, you can produce all the facts, figures and quotes you want but you’ll never convince me Dorothy Lamour was a greater female star than Ava Gardner in Hollywoods golden age. Maybe in your ‘parallel universe’, not mine.
When you first mentioned you added an actress to your Top 25 list as a joke I dismissed Brando’s sister and thought you meant Lamour, that’s why I chuckled. 🙂
Let’s agree to disagree on the matter. My latest video is one of your favorite actors that should cheer you up a bit. 😉
HI STEVE
(1) Yeah I realise now we were at cross purposes about the “chuckling” but not about THE Chuck of course!
(2) Still I’m impressed that you were able to regard Sis Mumbles as the serious entry. She must have made more of an impression on screen than I thought. Oh what a talented family!
(3) When I hear that people are determined to dismiss “facts and figures” I sadly come to the conclusion that The Donald is having more of an effect on sensible citizens than I had thought.
(4) However “A man convinced against his will, remains unconvinced still,” and anyway a lot of the fun would go out of it if I actually did convince you because that fun lies in not convincing someone but in the trying to convince. That’s why I’ll probably have fun until the end of my days attempting to convince WH that Myrna is not the Box Office Queen – he’ll never give ground on that one!
(5) Anyway I’m half through my post on Burt part 1 so catch up with you again tomorrow – meanwhile please Ava good night’s sleep.
BOB:
I cannot seem to find your list of Top 25 Actresses even though I can read Steve’s responses to your list and your responses to him. Could you or someone else please post your list again.
HI FLORA
1 I agree that this page is getting so convoluted that it’s hard to find things. I attach in my next post a copy of my females list which you will see was jointly addressed to you when I posted it originally.
2 The listing of Jocelyn Brando was of course a joke.