Katharine Hepburn, Humphrey Bogart and Grace Kelly just 3 of the AFI Top 50 Screen Legends
Sometime in 2011 we decided it would be fun to do a Ultimate Movie Rankings (UMR) movie page on the AFI Top 50 Screen Legends. The AFI list of the top 50 greatest screen legends in American film history, included 25 male and 25 female stars. The list was unveiled by the American Film Institute on June 15, 1999. The American Film Institute defined an “American screen legend” as an actor or a team of actors during the classic film era with a significant screen presence in American feature-length films whose screen debut occurred in or before 1950, or whose screen debut occurred after 1950 but whose death has marked a completed body of work.
When we started doing these pages 6 of the 50 Screen Legends were still alive. Sadly Elizabeth Taylor, Shirley Temple and Lauren Bacall passed away before we could finish our quest. Kirk Douglas, Sidney Poitier and Sophia Loren are still alive and well. Douglas will be 100 later this year…and just last week we received an autograph from that screen legend…but that is another story. After spending the last 5 years looking at the AFI list…we can say we like the list…BUT….there is one massive injustice. How Olivia de Havilland did not make the list makes no sense to us….ok done ranting.
The first AFI screen legend we researched and wrote about was Clark Gable….the last AFI screen legend we did was Mary Pickford. Between the Gable and Pickford pages….5 years passed, we changed our website home 2 times, we took a statistical look at 2,267 movies and we saw our classic movie pages become the most popular on our website….easily kicking our current movie star pages to the curb. So we decided to put all 50 of our AFI Screen Legends on one page. Each link below will take you to that star’s UMR page….where you will find box office grosses, reviews and awards for every single movie that star made during their career. John Wayne and Robert Mitchum are tied with the most movies (83) while James Dean has the least (3 movies).
AFI’s Top 25 Screen Legend Actors….with links to our movie pages on the Screen Legend
1. Humphrey Bogart 58 Movies Ranked….from Casablanca (1942) to Swing Your Lady (1938)
2. Cary Grant 58 Movies Ranked… from North by Northwest (1959) to Born To Be Bad (1934)
3. James Stewart 73 Movies Ranked Mr. Smith Goes to Washington(1939) to Big Sleep(1978)
4. Marlon Brando 37 Movies Ranked….from The Godfather (1972) to Christopher Columbus (1992)
5. Fred Astaire 39 Movies Ranked The Towering Inferno (1974) to The Amazing Dobermans (1976)
6. Henry Fonda 81 Movies Ranked… On Golden Pond (1981) to City on Fire (1979)
7. Clark Gable 63 Movies Ranked….from Gone With The Wind (1939) to Parnell (1937)
8. James Cagney 61 Movies Ranked….from Yankee Doodle Dandy (1942) to Boy Meets Girl (1938)
9. Spencer Tracy 53 Movies Ranked….from Boy’s Town (1938) to Up the River (1930)
10. Charles Chaplin 12 Movies Ranked….from The Kid (1921) to A Countess from Hong Kong (1967)
11. Gary Cooper 67 Movies Ranked….from Sergeant York (1941) to Fighting Caravans (1931)
12. Gregory Peck 53 Movies Ranked To Kill a Mockingbird(1962) to Amazing Grace & Chuck(1987)
13. John Wayne 83 Movies Ranked….from True Grit (1969) to Brannigan (1975)
14. Laurence Olivier 48 Movies Ranked….from Rebecca (1940) to Inchon (1982)
15. Gene Kelly 40 Movies Ranked….from Anchors Aweigh (1945) to Viva Knievel! (1977)
16. Orson Welles 75 Movies Ranked….from Citizen Kane (1941) to Treasure Island (1972)
17. Kirk Douglas 71 Movies Ranked….from Spartacus (1960) to Diamonds (1999)
18. James Dean 3 Movies Ranked….from East of Eden (1955) to Giant (1956)
19. Burt Lancaster 67 Movies Ranked From Here to Eternity (1953) to Executive Action (1973)
20. Marx Brothers 18 Movies Ranked….from Horse Feathers (1932) to The Story of Mankind (1957)
21. Buster Keaton 28 Movies Ranked….from The Cameraman (1928) to The Intruder (1936)
22. Sidney Poitier 46 Movies Ranked….from In the Heat of the Night (1967) to Fast Forward (1985)
23. Robert Mitchum 83 Movies Ranked….from The Longest Day (1962) to Matilda (1978)
24. Edward G. Robinson 67 Movies Ranked 10 Commandments(1956) to BiggestBundleofAll(1968)
25. William Holden 66 Movies Ranked….from The Bridge on the River Kwai (1957) to Ashanti (1979)
America Film Institutes’ Top 25 Screen Legend Actress and UMR’s Links That Rank All Of Their Movies.
1. Katharine Hepburn 43 Movies Ranked..On Golden Pond (1981) to Grace Quigley (1985)
2. Bette Davis 79 Movies Ranked…from All About Eve (1950) to Wicked Stepmother (1989)
3. Audrey Hepburn 24 Movies Ranked…from My Fair Lady (1964) to The All Laughed (1981)
4. Ingrid Bergman 32 Movies Ranked..Gaslight(1944) to Files of Mrs. Basil E.Frankweiler(1973)
5. Greta Garbo 24 Movies Ranked.. from Ninotchka (1939) to Torrent (1928)
6. Marilyn Monroe 23 Movies Ranked…from Some Like It Hot (1959) to Ladies of the Chorus (1948)
7. Elizabeth Taylor 47 Movies Ranked..Who’s Afraid of Va.Woolf?(1966) to A Little Night Music(1977)
8. Judy Garland 31 Movies Ranked…from A Star Is Born (1954) to I Could Go On Singing (1963)
9. Marlene Dietrich 30 Movies Ranked…from Shanghai Express (1932) to Just A Gigolo (1978)
10. Joan Crawford 72 Movies Ranked…from Mildred Pierce (1945) to The Law of the Range (1928)
11. Barbara Stanwyck 72 Movies Ranked.. Double Indemnity (1944) to The Bride Walks Out (1936)
12. Claudette Colbert 48 Movies Ranked..It Happened One Night(1934) to Royal Affairs(1954)
13. Grace Kelly 11 Movies Ranked.. from The Country Girl (1954) to Green Fire (1954)
14. Ginger Rogers 54 Movies Ranked.. from Kitty Foyle (1940) to The Groom Wore Spurs (1951)
15. Mae West 12 Movies Ranked.. from She Done Him Wrong (1933) to Sextette (1978)
16. Vivien Leigh 15 Movies Ranked.. from Gone With The Wind (1939) to Dark Journey (1937)
17. Lillian Gish 31 Movies Ranked.. from Intolerance (1916) to Hambone and Hillie (1983)
18. Shirley Temple 37 Movies Ranked.. from Since You Went Away (1944) to Honeymoon (1947)
19. Rita Hayworth 35 Movies Ranked.. from Gilda (1946) to The Naked Zoo (1970)
20. Lauren Bacall 36 Movies Ranked.. from To Have and Have Not (1944) to Diamonds (1999)
21. Sophia Loren 29 Movies Ranked.. from El Cid (1961) to Firepower (1979)
22. Jean Harlow 22 Movies Ranked.. from The Public Enemy (1931) to Riffraff (1936)
23. Carole Lombard 39 Movies Ranked from My Man Godfrey (1936) to It Pays To Advertise(1931)
24. Mary Pickford 31 Movies Ranked.. from The Little Princess (1917) to Rosita (1923)
25. Ava Gardner 40 Movies Ranked.. from The Killers (1946) to City on Fire (1979)
The amount of hours that went into this quest is mind boggling….but now that it is over….gotta admit…damn glad we did it. Of course that brings out the question…What Now?
174 thoughts on “AFI Top 50 Screen Legends”
For those interested AFI has complete lists of the 250 actors and 250 actresses originally nominated for this list. Use the link below if you’re interested.
In looking at the Top 25 Actresses, there is one glaring omission: Doris Day was left off of the list. She made her debut prior to 1950 and was a cultural icon. I wonder if her omission was similar to Sinatra being considered a great singer instead? Yet included stars Astaire, Kelly, and Rogers were all great dancers. Hmmm.
Two other omissions I considered are Jane Russell and Olivia DeHaviland.
In looking over the AFI Top 25 Actresses, I agree with most of the inclusions but would arrange them differently. I am familiar with the careers of all the women who made the list. For what it’s worth, my favourite actress is Audrey Hepburn.
Here is my list:
1. Katherine Hepburn
2. Bette Davis
3. Marilyn Monroe
4. Judy Garland
5. Ingrid Bergman
6. Elizabeth Taylor
7. Audrey Hepburn
8. Greta Garbo
9. Jean Harlow
10.Doris Day
11.Marlene Dietrich
12.Joan Crawford
13.Ginger Rogers
14.Shirley Temple
15.Rita Hayworth
16.Lauren Bacall
17.Grace Kelly
18.Barbara Stanwyck
19.Sophia Loren
20.Lillian Gish
21.Mary Pickford
22.Carole Lombard
23.Jane Russell
24.Vivien Leigh
25.Claudette Colbert
As you can see, I removed Mae West and Ava Gardner and replaced them with Doris Day and Jane Russell. As well, I changed the order of actresses’ ranking. I nearly switched Katherine Hepburn and Bette Davis, but decided against this.
1 As you may know I had reservations about Loren and Bacall but only a woman can assess female actresses from a woman’s viewpoint and having asked for your judgement I respect it.
2 4 things really please me about your list, one of which absolutely delights me.
(1) Doris is on it and that’s the one that delights.
(2) Although I am not particularly an MM fan my objective opinion has always been that Marilyn deserves to be in the Top 3.
(3) Great to see Jane Russell being included by you. She barely gets a mention when the Legends are debated but anyone such as I who went to the cinema in the 1950s can testify to how massive a star Jane was. For that reason for me she is a very nostalgic choice by you.
(4) I always thought Audrey Hepburn’s 3rd ranking in the AFI women’s list was too high and I think that you putting her down to 7th is about right as certainly she was never as big as Liz or Judy for example. Indeed as a Legend Judy like Sinatra is one performer whose great fame transcended the acting profession and still does today.
3 I think the exclusion of Ava Gardner and Mae West [who made only a handful of films and was a “one trick pony” in most or all of them] was a good call by you. Thank you once again for responding to my suggestion of some cross gender attention within this site to the female Legends issue.
Hi Bob,
Since the discussion on lists of screen legends has appropriately moved from the Site Index page to the AFI Top 50 Screen Legend, I will respond to your last reply to me (particularly on the Clark Gable question) on this page.
In terms of Gable being the King of Hollywood, let’s remember that for a little while, Myrna Loy was Queen – but royalty titles mean less in the US than in the UK 🙂 Joking aside, after reading your post, I thought I could at least have included Gable ahead of Spencer Tracy in my list. After all, I can see that Gable’s dominating popularity during much of Hollywood’s golden age and his iconic starring role in what is usually seen as the biggest classic of all times, certainly justifies him being among the top 3 in some lists (such as yours). On the other hand, apart from a handful of outstanding classic films (Gone with the Wind, Mutiny on the Bounty, It Happened One Night), not as many of Gable’s films have proved as successful over time as those of the stars I have listed ahead of him. If we look for instance at the number of Gable-starring films with more than 5,000 votes on IMDB, there are 6, while Tracy has 14 and Cooper has 13. The long-term popularity of films is not something that is captured by the UMR score.If we consider the criteria of critical recognition, 7 Gable films have a UMR critical rating score of 80% or more, while Tracy has 13 films scoring 80% or more. In terms of award recognition of great performances, again Gable does not do quite as well as Tracy and most of the others I have ahead of him.
As discussed, if we were considering the standings of actors only during the classic era, my list would probably be much more similar to yours, but time has not been as kind to many of King of Hollywood’s films as to those of some others. And as I’ve mentioned to Bruce a couple of times, my view is that the true value of movies and stars is best assessed not in terms of their immediate success, but in hindsight, with the perspective of time and history.
Thanks for responding to my Gable question. You have well argued your case for your final choices, backing up with your conclusions with hard stats. It will be interesting to now see what Flora’s conclusions are on the ladies side. Think that among you, Steve and me we have covered all of the really big stars who would be in serious contention on the men’s side.
One guy that neither anyone on this site nor the professional listers ever mention nowadays is Mickey Rooney who was massive for a time in the late 1930s and 1940s, particularly in harness with Judy Garland but Mickey’s one of those artists whose reputation seems to have diminished over time and even he laughed at the idea that he was once thought to be in the same league as the likes of Tracy and Gable.
Thanks Flora for your interesting re-do of AFI’s top 25 classic actresses, and thanks Bob for your insightful review. I agree with Flora’s exclusions from the AFI list, the addition of Doris Day (though not so high on the list as her films have usually not received outstanding critical acclaim), and upgrading Marilyn to a higher position. Not sure about Jane Russel, and I think Joan Crawford also deserves a higher spot.
As mentioned, I am rather less familiar with the careers of classic actresses, but I have been presumptuous and had a go at my own list. I’ve kept Flora’s exclusions of Ava Gardner and Mae West (as they do not score highly on my critical acclaim criteria) and also cut out Lauren Bacall. It was a close call on Bacall (no pun intended), but ultimately I felt her call to legendary status was mainly due to her marriage and association with Bogart. I replaced them with Day, Deborah Kerr and UMR’s most controversial figure, Myrna Loy.
Other actresses that I considered adding were Jean Arthur, Betty Grable, Olivia de Havilland, and Maureen O’Hara. I also hesitated about Janet Gaynor. I’m not familiar with her career, but she seemed to have been a big box office star of the 30s, though I noted Bruce has not yet even honored her with a UMR page. So for better or for worse, here’s my take:
1. Bette Davis
2. Katharine Hepburn
3. Marilyn Monroe
4. Joan Crawford
5. Elizabeth Taylor
6. Audrey Hepburn
7. Ingrid Bergman
8. Greta Garbo
9. Marlene Dietrich
10. Judy Garland
11. Ginger Rogers
12. Barbara Stanwyck
13. Claudette Colbert
14. Shirley Temple
15. Rita Hayworth
16. Grace Kelly
17. Jean Harlow
18. Doris Day
19. Lilian Gish
20. Myrna Loy
21. Vivian Leigh
22. Carole Lombard
23. Mary Pickford
24. Deborah Kerr
25. Sophia Loren
Why move Davis to # 1 instead of Katie Hepburn? She seems more legendary to me, but that’s a completely unscientific opinion 🙂
1 Phil’s female list of legends is I think as good a fist as a male could make of it. Contrary to the wild stories that Steve and Bruce spread about me on this site, kidding apart I don’t have my knife into Myra and my only objection has ever been to the idea that she is the greatest female BOX OFFICE star of all time.
2 Otherwise I regard her as a very talented and popular actress in her day, who was also commendably strong on the civil rights issues of those times and did much for the war effort. Certainly if we extended to a Top 35 she would be comfortably on my own list so I am obliged to accept Phil’s selection of her within his 25 as a respectable one.
3 Three things particularly please me about Phil’s list – (1) that of course he like Flora has placed my Doris on it (2) that he has listed my Joan in the 4th slot and (3) that he has included the great Deb Kerr. Of all the “forgotten ladies” of the screen nowadays she has in my opinion one of the strongest claims as a contender for recognition on the AFI lists as in the late 1940s until the early 1960s she was a great prestige actress in Hollywood whose films always made a pile of money. Steve hasn’t given us a ladies’ list so I don’t know what he thinks of his Scottish “English rose” being on it!
4 I respect Phil’s decision to place Bette above Katie but as John Wayne said “Sure wouldn’t like to live on the difference” and there is one question that I might put to you in the matter. All current lists that I’ve seen now rank Streep above Bette/Katie ?
5 In a separate post I will give my own list of my perceived 25 greatest female legends. However I am of course judging from purely a man’s perspective and any viewers who are not sure for themselves had best be guided by Flora’s list from the female perspective. I think that there would be general agreement on this site that in relation to old Hollywood and its stars and movies Flora is THE WOMAN as Sherlock Holmes often said of Irene Adler.
These are the perceptions that I formed of the 25 Greatest female movie Legends of all time during my “coming of age “as a cinemagoer in the 1950s and 1960s. Many might feel the one striking omission is Garbo.
However although a fine actress I thought she was at times too contrived and her box office in Hollywood films was frankly abysmal compared to most other listed Legends [just $2 billion adjusted domestic for Greta according to Bruce][so though she was of course much superior to the rather banal Gabor sisters I thought that to some extent she was like them “famous for being famous” and a great poseur but of course I will in the end yield to Flora’s female perception in the matter. There is one for fun wind-up in the list and it is targeted at Steve. See if you can spot it but otherwise the list is very serious albeit subjective of course.
1/Marilyn Monroe
2/Joan Crawford
3/Katharine Hepburn
3/Bette Davis – joint with Katie
5/Judy Garland
6/Ingrid Bergman
7Doris Day
8/Elizabeth Taylor
9/Audrey Hepburn
10/Mary Pickford
11/Shirley Temple
12/ Ginger Rogers
13/Deborah Kerr
14/Rita Hayworth
15/Jean Harlow
16/Carole Lombard
17/Claudette Colbert
18/Irene Dunne
19/Grace Kelly
20/Barbara Stanwyck
21/Marlene Dietrich
22/Jane Russell
23/Esther Williams
24/Dorothy Lamour
25/Hedy Lamarr and Jocelyn Brando jointly
Thanks Bob, for your kind words on female legend list and posting your own. This seems to have become the most popular sport on UMR over the past few days. As usual, I respect your expertise so I can’t argue with your choices and rankings except to say that Jocelyn Brando should have been #1 🙂 Also, we certainly agree on the top 4, albeit in slightly different order, which means we must be right!
Fascinating list and good reasoning behind your choices. Love the inclusion of Kerr and Loy. I nearly switched Davis and K. Hepburn.
I haven’t had time to do my own Top 25 Actors list. I still plan to do one.
Bob, your list matches with 18 of mine, 7 out (ignoring mumbles sibling)
I agree wiith you putting Marilyn first, not the greatest actress but she was legendary, iconic and a screen goddess too.
Joan Crawford is too high up but than she is your favorite so I’ll let that pass. [Bob screams]
Irene Dunne instead of our lovely Myrna? Is it still April 1st? [snorts]
Dorothy Lamour in place of Ava Gardner… I should post that on my forum just to see their expressions…
A while back we had a debate on who was more beautiful – Ava or Liz Taylor? each had plenty of votes. In a rebellious mood I opted for the American over the English girl. 🙂
Phil, our lists match on 20, that’s 5 out, not bad. It was all going well until I got to the bottom of your list and saw Euro Star Sophia, English, och no sorry, Scottish lass Debs and Wife of Fairbanks.
You get extra points for including UMR legend Myrna Loy on the list. 🙂
1 HI MO Because of the beauty factor so many actresses have been massively hyped to the point where they become “famous for being famous” and possibly there are those among the general public who accept the hype without checking closely whether the performers concerned really match up to it with what they deliver on the screen and at the box office.
2 Certainly nobody who follows this site now has an excuse for not knowing how well stars performed at the box office and Bette Davis and Joan Crawford were agreed on at least one thing – that a performer cannot be considered a true star unless her/she pulls weight at the box office.
3 Bruce’s stats demonstrate conclusively that the likes of Mae West and Greta Garbo had nowhere near the commercial success of their contemporaries, and Margaret Hinxman Britain’s lead film critic in the 1950s stated categorically that there was no “evidence” that Gardner was a box office star and Ava was at the peak of her career when Hinxman reached that conclusion
STEVE In relation to Dorothy Lamour and Ava Gardner here are the films that those two carried without the aid of another major star and that crashed through Bruce’s 100 million dollar barrier. Dorothy had many below the 100 million mark whereas Ava had few
DOROTHY
Beyond the Blue Horizon/ $177 million in adjusted domestic grosses
Aloma of the South Seas/155 million
The Fleets In/155 million *
Hurricane/ 152 million
Rainbow Island/152 million
A Medal for Benny/105 million
St Louis Blues/104 million
*Golden Holden was in this one but had not yet become a star.
AVA
NIL Her highest grossing stand-alone film was The Naked Maja with an adjusted domestic Cogerson gross of $42.7 million
OVERALL COGERSON GROSSES IN ADJUSTED DOMESTIC DOLLARS
LAMOUR: $6.5 billion – Average $124.6 million
GARDNER $4.3 billion – average $107.7 million
NOTE
In the classic era most stars were usually joined by stars of importance in their movies but the litmus test was whether when the need arose he/she could carry a film solo. Lamour demonstrated she could whereas it seems Gardner was not able to do so. Also Ava was not known as an outstanding actress like Davis Katie Hep or Bergman so that even if you accept all the hype about her on the grounds of her beauty being justified there is still a respectable case for ranking Dottie above her and the latter was no ordinary looker either and indeed notorious womaniser Leslie Townes Hope is said to have found her “very sexy”
Bob, thanks for the added info. Dorothy Lamour was very attractive too I agree, but from a film history perspective it’s Ava Gardner who is the most glamorous, most famous and most iconic of the two, and she is a better actress than Lamour.
The bottom line is producers of 55 Days at Peking, Three Musketeers or The Rains of Ranchipur are more likely to cast Lana Turner or Ava Gardner in their movies than Lamour, Betty Grable or Jane Russell, regardless of the latters box office pull in b-movies of the 40s and 50s.
HI PHIL
1 Thanks for your detailed explanations about Gable. You’ve certainly defended your own choices with hard stats and that makes sense. I think that among Steve, you and I we’ve probably covered all the really big males stars who could realistically be regarded as being in contention for any Legend’s list and we can only now wait and see Flora’s take on the ladies’ side
2 One guy whom neither the people on this site nor the professional listers ever seem to mention is Mickey Rooney who was massive in the late 30s and the 1940s, particularly in harness with Judy Garland and in the Andy Hardy series. but seems to be one of those stars whose reputation has considerably diminished with time. Even he later in life laughed at the idea that he was once considered as being in the Gable/Tracy league.
Here is my own personal Top 25 Greatest Hollywood Actors list. All born before 1930.
I left out Olivier for being too British. Chaplin and Buster Keaton are out too. I’ve never found slapstick comedy particularly funny and if I had to choose I prefer Keaton, for his elaborate gags and dangerous stunts and for being unsentimental. I’ve left in Bob Hope but removed The Marx Bros, big favorites of mine but I had to be ruthless.
Sidney Poitier is a good actor but not as legendary as these gentlemen IMO. James Dean left his mark but he starred in just three films and the jury is still out on whether he would have grown into a major Hollywood star ala Paul Newman or Brando.
I should have totted up their top 10 movie scores to make it more interesting but I’m too lazy, maybe next time.
In alphabetical order –
Fred Astaire
Humphrey Bogart
Marlon Brando
James Cagney
Gary Cooper
Kirk Douglas
Errol Flynn
Henry Fonda
Glenn Ford
Clark Gable
Cary Grant
Charlton Heston
William Holden
Bob Hope
Gene Kelly
Alan Ladd
Burt Lancaster
Robert Mitchum
Gregory Peck
Tyrone Power
James Stewart
Robert Taylor
Spencer Tracy
John Wayne
Richard Widmark
I made a reply on the site index but see that the discussion has more properly moved to Bruce’s Top 50 Legends page. Very interesting list that I see you have made alphabetical. I’ve never agreed with the Marx Brothers being included. Too bad Frank Sinatra was not included. One name you left off which should be included is Poitier.
Well, I will start talking about the actresses after lunch time.
Hi Steve,
Great to have you chime into this by giving us your own list, which seems to be somewhere between Bob’s and mine. Just a few points:
While Olivier probably enjoys more recognition in the UK than in the US, I think he is pretty much internationally recognized as one of the greatest thespians of the 20th century, which explains his presence on the AFI list. The name “Laurence Olivier” is probably recognizable to many who has not even seen his films. However, I see your point, because in the US at least, Olivier was never a major box office attraction.
I agree that Poitier’s career was not quite as strong as most of the actors you have on your list, but his impact, in terms of opening up cinema to black actors and actresses, is truly legendary. Again, the name “Sidney Poitier”at least in North America is recognizable to many who may not even be familiar with his films. I agree with Flora here.
It seems I’m surrounded by fans of Richard Widmark and Alan Ladd, so I will be silent on the merits of their inclusion in your list 😉 But if you considered actors born before 1930, why did you leave out Paul Newman and Jack Lemmon?
1 PHIL I noticed that in your response to Steve you mentioned Alan Ladd, nicknamed Laddie by his great friend and frequent co-star William Bendix. I have long ago told this site that my own top 5 favourite male movie stars are in order Widmark, Peck, Stewart, Laddie and Morgan Freeman, though further down my list are Glenn Ford, Chuck Heston Mumbles, the Duke and Michael Caine aka Sir Maurice Micklewhite.
2 I did not include Laddie in my Top 25/26 because his combination of acting honours, classics and overall box office grosses made him just miss the cut in my opinion though he would be comfortably within my Top 35 if we went that far. [Neither did I give him credit for his Nevada Smith in The Carpetbaggers as that was outside the Classic Era]
3 A film historian said of Laddie “He was a great box office draw in all of the films in his heyday. We know that because there was usually nothing but him in them.” To me it is every bit the hallmark of a major star to be able to carry a long run of routinely entertaining films that make money –and for many people that’s what it’s all about – as it is to be part of an ensemble and/or an Oscar winner in a series of classic movies. Apparently not one of Ladd’s films in his top star period lost money and of course Shane has earned him cinematic mortality.
5 Accordingly whilst I did not put Alan in my own Top 25/26 what I have just said above would make it very difficult for me to argue that Steve did not have a respectable case for including Laddie in the Lensman Top 25.
Thanks Bob for copying the AFI discussion to this page. You make some good points about Laddie and Rooney’s diminishing standing over the years (as if he could even get shorter).
COPIED FROM SITE INDEX PAGE
BOB to PHIL
April 13, 2018 at 10:50 am
1/John Wayne
2/Charlie Chaplin
3/Clark Gable
4/Humphrey Bogart
5/Cary Grant
6/Bing Crosby
7/James Stewart
8/Gary Cooper
9/Spencer Tracy
10/Gregory Peck
11/Marlon Brando
12/Bob Hope
13/James Cagney
14/Tyrone Power
15/Fred Astaire
16/Charlton Heston
17/Errol Flynn
18/Frank Sinatra
19/Douglas Fairbanks Senior
20/Burt Lancaster
21/Glenn Ford
22/Rock Hudson
23/Richard Widmark
24/William Holden
25/Laurence Olivier and Marx Bros jointly
COPIED FROM SITE INDEX PAGE
PhilHOF17
April 13, 2018 at 7:04 pm
Hi Bob,
Thanks for you follow-up responses and providing us with the BFI top 25 male classic stars list ;). It is certainly a thought-provoking and defensible list. You have been very bold in performing major surgery on the AFI list by taking out 9 of their legends – Gene Kelly, Kirk Douglas, Orson Wells, James Dean, Sidney Poitier, Robert Mitchum, Buster Keaton, Edward G Robinson, and most surprisingly, Henry Fonda) – replacing them with Bing Crosby, Bob Hope, Tyrone Power, Charlton Heston, Errol Flynn, Frank Sinatra, Douglas Fairbanks Sr, Glenn Ford, Rock Hudson and Richard Widmark), while drastically re-ordering the others.
The list is interesting as I think it captures well, by and large, the relative popularity and box office success of these movie legends during their heydays, with a few possible exceptions: Widmark (as much as I like him as well and respect that he is your favorite actor) never enjoyed the popular success in the US and worldwide as these other stars – and in his peak years, Heston was not quite as big as most stars you have listed behind him, such as Frank Sinatra, Burt Lancaster and Rock Hudson.
Rather than knit-pick at your list, I will offer my own, noting that while it is not superior to yours, it is quite different, perhaps because like the AFI, I have put more weight than you have on the critical success, influence and long-term significance to cinema of these legendary actors (I have not included the Marx Brothers because of relatively few films and trying to limit this list to individuals):
1) James Stewart
2) Humphrey Bogart
3) Cary Grant
4) John Wayne
5) Marlon Brando
6) Charlie Chaplin
7) Gary Cooper
8) Spencer Tracy
9) Clark Gable
10) Henry Fonda
11) Fred Astaire
12) James Cagney
13) Gregory Peck
14) Laurence Olivier
15) Burt Lancaster
16) Gene Kelly
17) Kirk Douglas
18) Robert Mitchum
19) William Holden
20) Sidney Poitier
21) Richard Burton
22) Charlton Heston
23) Buster Keaton
24) Douglas Fairbanks Sr
25) Errol Flynn tied with Frank Sinatra ?
Incidentally, we have both kept the AFI’s cut-off of considering only actors who had made their film debut by 1950 or earlier – however, it is a bit strange to consider, say Poitier, Hudson, and Heston as eligible classic stars, but not their contemporaries such as Jack Lemmon and Paul Newman. Perhaps a true list of classic stars should be open to any actor who became major stars by the early/mid 1960s, which is when I think Hollywood started moving in the modern era.
As Steve suggested I have just copied to this page my list and Phil’s so that the lists of all 4 of us are now on the correct page.
1 HI MO Good list and although as I told Phil I’ve reservations about Mitch and Kirk making the Top 25 [top 35 would have been more agreeable to me personally] I cannot quarrel that they are nonetheless true contenders. Also like Phil you have included all of my idols who were on the AFI list and you also provided me with the bonuses of Charlie Bill, Laddie and Dickie though for both of us Chuck was of course a “given”. Possibly my greatest surprise with your list is that there is no Crosby whereas I thought you were a “Bing Man”. Why is it that everyone but I have seemingly fallen out of love with the great Harry Lillis, once an American Institution? Even Bob Hope [rightly included by you] conceded Bing was the bigger star and deserved top billing in the Road pictures and “Leslie” was not known for his modesty!
2 ADDITIONAL RELATED TRIVIA. I’ve mentioned the Time magazine list of 100 Greatest People of the 20th Century which covered numerous types of professions and activities and included 4 mainstream movie stars. It too of course had its critics but it always seemed to me that the greatest omission was Elvis. Time wasn’t of course comparing apples with apples across the board and initially split the 100 into 10 sections with 10 entries in each section. In the case of the 4 movie stars Charlie was included as the greatest COMEDIAN and SILENT STAR, Mumbles was in as an ACTOR, and Marilyn was perceived as the most influential ACTRESS and SEX SYMBOL but Sinatra was there as a SINGER. I have always thought that Elvis was as big as any singer that ever lived and I see that the Top guy responsible for the final selections in the Time list has apologised for the exclusion of King Presley so it’s never too late for Bruce to apologise to us for some of his decisions about exclusions/inclusions!
3 TOTALLY UNRELATED TRIVIA. In the Sherlock Holmes stories Watson expressed great astonishment at one day being told by Holmes that he not only had the latter a brother but a “smarter brother” [Mycroft Holmes politician]. When the good doctor enquired why Mycroft too hadn’t made a name for himself as a great detective Sherlock replied that his brother was too lazy to do the actual leg work that the trade required. I see that you admit to being too lazy to attach scores to your legends listings so could it be that this site actually has a “smarter Work Horse” who simply cannot be bothered to put in the great efforts that the existing holder of that title applies?
Good post Bob. I’ve copied and pasted my Top 25 list to this page.
AFI greats I’ve left off my list – Olivier, Poitier, Welles, Chaplin, Keaton, Dean, Robinson and The Marx Brothers.
I did have Sinatra on my list but replaced him with Robert Taylor at the last minute.
Bob Hope is the odd one out on my list, the only comedian.
I’m assuming the AFI list is for ‘Hollywood’ greats, which makes sense being it’s the ‘American Film Institute’, was Olivier a Hollywood star in the same way David Niven was? Not sure. Looking at the Actress Top 25, Sophia Loren seems like the odd one out, her filmography is predominantly European films but she did appear in some big Hollywood productions. I would have replaced her with Myrna Loy.
A top 30 would have been better, than I would have included Sinatra and Crosby.
Bob, I’m not lazy when creating videos, but when it comes to lists and charts… funny when I was younger I was always making lists. I had binders filled with all kinds of lists and indexes. I’m just glad the internet exists and contains all the lists and charts you can possibly want. Bruce’s UMR is a treasure trove of facts and figures.
A pal of mine is a fanatical list-maker and when his children were young he even had on his large locked pantry door lists of their treats inside the pantry such as crisps and sweets and every time they withdrew a treat it would be crossed off the list.
He has envelopes pinned above each of his mod-cons [fridge, washing machine, dishwasher etc] and in each envelope is money which is the reserved budget to repair that machine if it breaks down or to replace it if it needs replaced.
He has huge freezers and buys all his food in bulk to save money. Probably only our Work Horse could equal him as an organised person and as both of them are in the teaching profession exceptional organisational skills may well be in the DNA of such beings!
For those interested AFI has complete lists of the 250 actors and 250 actresses originally nominated for this list. Use the link below if you’re interested.
http://www.afi.com/Docs/100Years/stars500.pdf
HI DAN
Thanks for the link. Very interested.
In looking at the Top 25 Actresses, there is one glaring omission: Doris Day was left off of the list. She made her debut prior to 1950 and was a cultural icon. I wonder if her omission was similar to Sinatra being considered a great singer instead? Yet included stars Astaire, Kelly, and Rogers were all great dancers. Hmmm.
Two other omissions I considered are Jane Russell and Olivia DeHaviland.
In looking over the AFI Top 25 Actresses, I agree with most of the inclusions but would arrange them differently. I am familiar with the careers of all the women who made the list. For what it’s worth, my favourite actress is Audrey Hepburn.
Here is my list:
1. Katherine Hepburn
2. Bette Davis
3. Marilyn Monroe
4. Judy Garland
5. Ingrid Bergman
6. Elizabeth Taylor
7. Audrey Hepburn
8. Greta Garbo
9. Jean Harlow
10.Doris Day
11.Marlene Dietrich
12.Joan Crawford
13.Ginger Rogers
14.Shirley Temple
15.Rita Hayworth
16.Lauren Bacall
17.Grace Kelly
18.Barbara Stanwyck
19.Sophia Loren
20.Lillian Gish
21.Mary Pickford
22.Carole Lombard
23.Jane Russell
24.Vivien Leigh
25.Claudette Colbert
As you can see, I removed Mae West and Ava Gardner and replaced them with Doris Day and Jane Russell. As well, I changed the order of actresses’ ranking. I nearly switched Katherine Hepburn and Bette Davis, but decided against this.
At first glance, this looks excellent Flora, but I will come back on this later as I am running out of time presently 🙂
HI FLORA
1 As you may know I had reservations about Loren and Bacall but only a woman can assess female actresses from a woman’s viewpoint and having asked for your judgement I respect it.
2 4 things really please me about your list, one of which absolutely delights me.
(1) Doris is on it and that’s the one that delights.
(2) Although I am not particularly an MM fan my objective opinion has always been that Marilyn deserves to be in the Top 3.
(3) Great to see Jane Russell being included by you. She barely gets a mention when the Legends are debated but anyone such as I who went to the cinema in the 1950s can testify to how massive a star Jane was. For that reason for me she is a very nostalgic choice by you.
(4) I always thought Audrey Hepburn’s 3rd ranking in the AFI women’s list was too high and I think that you putting her down to 7th is about right as certainly she was never as big as Liz or Judy for example. Indeed as a Legend Judy like Sinatra is one performer whose great fame transcended the acting profession and still does today.
3 I think the exclusion of Ava Gardner and Mae West [who made only a handful of films and was a “one trick pony” in most or all of them] was a good call by you. Thank you once again for responding to my suggestion of some cross gender attention within this site to the female Legends issue.
Hi Bob,
Since the discussion on lists of screen legends has appropriately moved from the Site Index page to the AFI Top 50 Screen Legend, I will respond to your last reply to me (particularly on the Clark Gable question) on this page.
In terms of Gable being the King of Hollywood, let’s remember that for a little while, Myrna Loy was Queen – but royalty titles mean less in the US than in the UK 🙂 Joking aside, after reading your post, I thought I could at least have included Gable ahead of Spencer Tracy in my list. After all, I can see that Gable’s dominating popularity during much of Hollywood’s golden age and his iconic starring role in what is usually seen as the biggest classic of all times, certainly justifies him being among the top 3 in some lists (such as yours). On the other hand, apart from a handful of outstanding classic films (Gone with the Wind, Mutiny on the Bounty, It Happened One Night), not as many of Gable’s films have proved as successful over time as those of the stars I have listed ahead of him. If we look for instance at the number of Gable-starring films with more than 5,000 votes on IMDB, there are 6, while Tracy has 14 and Cooper has 13. The long-term popularity of films is not something that is captured by the UMR score.If we consider the criteria of critical recognition, 7 Gable films have a UMR critical rating score of 80% or more, while Tracy has 13 films scoring 80% or more. In terms of award recognition of great performances, again Gable does not do quite as well as Tracy and most of the others I have ahead of him.
As discussed, if we were considering the standings of actors only during the classic era, my list would probably be much more similar to yours, but time has not been as kind to many of King of Hollywood’s films as to those of some others. And as I’ve mentioned to Bruce a couple of times, my view is that the true value of movies and stars is best assessed not in terms of their immediate success, but in hindsight, with the perspective of time and history.
HI PHIL
Thanks for responding to my Gable question. You have well argued your case for your final choices, backing up with your conclusions with hard stats. It will be interesting to now see what Flora’s conclusions are on the ladies side. Think that among you, Steve and me we have covered all of the really big stars who would be in serious contention on the men’s side.
One guy that neither anyone on this site nor the professional listers ever mention nowadays is Mickey Rooney who was massive for a time in the late 1930s and 1940s, particularly in harness with Judy Garland but Mickey’s one of those artists whose reputation seems to have diminished over time and even he laughed at the idea that he was once thought to be in the same league as the likes of Tracy and Gable.
Thanks Flora for your interesting re-do of AFI’s top 25 classic actresses, and thanks Bob for your insightful review. I agree with Flora’s exclusions from the AFI list, the addition of Doris Day (though not so high on the list as her films have usually not received outstanding critical acclaim), and upgrading Marilyn to a higher position. Not sure about Jane Russel, and I think Joan Crawford also deserves a higher spot.
As mentioned, I am rather less familiar with the careers of classic actresses, but I have been presumptuous and had a go at my own list. I’ve kept Flora’s exclusions of Ava Gardner and Mae West (as they do not score highly on my critical acclaim criteria) and also cut out Lauren Bacall. It was a close call on Bacall (no pun intended), but ultimately I felt her call to legendary status was mainly due to her marriage and association with Bogart. I replaced them with Day, Deborah Kerr and UMR’s most controversial figure, Myrna Loy.
Other actresses that I considered adding were Jean Arthur, Betty Grable, Olivia de Havilland, and Maureen O’Hara. I also hesitated about Janet Gaynor. I’m not familiar with her career, but she seemed to have been a big box office star of the 30s, though I noted Bruce has not yet even honored her with a UMR page. So for better or for worse, here’s my take:
1. Bette Davis
2. Katharine Hepburn
3. Marilyn Monroe
4. Joan Crawford
5. Elizabeth Taylor
6. Audrey Hepburn
7. Ingrid Bergman
8. Greta Garbo
9. Marlene Dietrich
10. Judy Garland
11. Ginger Rogers
12. Barbara Stanwyck
13. Claudette Colbert
14. Shirley Temple
15. Rita Hayworth
16. Grace Kelly
17. Jean Harlow
18. Doris Day
19. Lilian Gish
20. Myrna Loy
21. Vivian Leigh
22. Carole Lombard
23. Mary Pickford
24. Deborah Kerr
25. Sophia Loren
Why move Davis to # 1 instead of Katie Hepburn? She seems more legendary to me, but that’s a completely unscientific opinion 🙂
1 Phil’s female list of legends is I think as good a fist as a male could make of it. Contrary to the wild stories that Steve and Bruce spread about me on this site, kidding apart I don’t have my knife into Myra and my only objection has ever been to the idea that she is the greatest female BOX OFFICE star of all time.
2 Otherwise I regard her as a very talented and popular actress in her day, who was also commendably strong on the civil rights issues of those times and did much for the war effort. Certainly if we extended to a Top 35 she would be comfortably on my own list so I am obliged to accept Phil’s selection of her within his 25 as a respectable one.
3 Three things particularly please me about Phil’s list – (1) that of course he like Flora has placed my Doris on it (2) that he has listed my Joan in the 4th slot and (3) that he has included the great Deb Kerr. Of all the “forgotten ladies” of the screen nowadays she has in my opinion one of the strongest claims as a contender for recognition on the AFI lists as in the late 1940s until the early 1960s she was a great prestige actress in Hollywood whose films always made a pile of money. Steve hasn’t given us a ladies’ list so I don’t know what he thinks of his Scottish “English rose” being on it!
4 I respect Phil’s decision to place Bette above Katie but as John Wayne said “Sure wouldn’t like to live on the difference” and there is one question that I might put to you in the matter. All current lists that I’ve seen now rank Streep above Bette/Katie ?
5 In a separate post I will give my own list of my perceived 25 greatest female legends. However I am of course judging from purely a man’s perspective and any viewers who are not sure for themselves had best be guided by Flora’s list from the female perspective. I think that there would be general agreement on this site that in relation to old Hollywood and its stars and movies Flora is THE WOMAN as Sherlock Holmes often said of Irene Adler.
These are the perceptions that I formed of the 25 Greatest female movie Legends of all time during my “coming of age “as a cinemagoer in the 1950s and 1960s. Many might feel the one striking omission is Garbo.
However although a fine actress I thought she was at times too contrived and her box office in Hollywood films was frankly abysmal compared to most other listed Legends [just $2 billion adjusted domestic for Greta according to Bruce][so though she was of course much superior to the rather banal Gabor sisters I thought that to some extent she was like them “famous for being famous” and a great poseur but of course I will in the end yield to Flora’s female perception in the matter. There is one for fun wind-up in the list and it is targeted at Steve. See if you can spot it but otherwise the list is very serious albeit subjective of course.
1/Marilyn Monroe
2/Joan Crawford
3/Katharine Hepburn
3/Bette Davis – joint with Katie
5/Judy Garland
6/Ingrid Bergman
7Doris Day
8/Elizabeth Taylor
9/Audrey Hepburn
10/Mary Pickford
11/Shirley Temple
12/ Ginger Rogers
13/Deborah Kerr
14/Rita Hayworth
15/Jean Harlow
16/Carole Lombard
17/Claudette Colbert
18/Irene Dunne
19/Grace Kelly
20/Barbara Stanwyck
21/Marlene Dietrich
22/Jane Russell
23/Esther Williams
24/Dorothy Lamour
25/Hedy Lamarr and Jocelyn Brando jointly
Thanks Bob, for your kind words on female legend list and posting your own. This seems to have become the most popular sport on UMR over the past few days. As usual, I respect your expertise so I can’t argue with your choices and rankings except to say that Jocelyn Brando should have been #1 🙂 Also, we certainly agree on the top 4, albeit in slightly different order, which means we must be right!
Fascinating list and good reasoning behind your choices. Love the inclusion of Kerr and Loy. I nearly switched Davis and K. Hepburn.
I haven’t had time to do my own Top 25 Actors list. I still plan to do one.
Bob, your list matches with 18 of mine, 7 out (ignoring mumbles sibling)
I agree wiith you putting Marilyn first, not the greatest actress but she was legendary, iconic and a screen goddess too.
Joan Crawford is too high up but than she is your favorite so I’ll let that pass. [Bob screams]
Irene Dunne instead of our lovely Myrna? Is it still April 1st? [snorts]
Dorothy Lamour in place of Ava Gardner… I should post that on my forum just to see their expressions…
A while back we had a debate on who was more beautiful – Ava or Liz Taylor? each had plenty of votes. In a rebellious mood I opted for the American over the English girl. 🙂
Phil, our lists match on 20, that’s 5 out, not bad. It was all going well until I got to the bottom of your list and saw Euro Star Sophia, English, och no sorry, Scottish lass Debs and Wife of Fairbanks.
You get extra points for including UMR legend Myrna Loy on the list. 🙂
1 HI MO Because of the beauty factor so many actresses have been massively hyped to the point where they become “famous for being famous” and possibly there are those among the general public who accept the hype without checking closely whether the performers concerned really match up to it with what they deliver on the screen and at the box office.
2 Certainly nobody who follows this site now has an excuse for not knowing how well stars performed at the box office and Bette Davis and Joan Crawford were agreed on at least one thing – that a performer cannot be considered a true star unless her/she pulls weight at the box office.
3 Bruce’s stats demonstrate conclusively that the likes of Mae West and Greta Garbo had nowhere near the commercial success of their contemporaries, and Margaret Hinxman Britain’s lead film critic in the 1950s stated categorically that there was no “evidence” that Gardner was a box office star and Ava was at the peak of her career when Hinxman reached that conclusion
STEVE In relation to Dorothy Lamour and Ava Gardner here are the films that those two carried without the aid of another major star and that crashed through Bruce’s 100 million dollar barrier. Dorothy had many below the 100 million mark whereas Ava had few
DOROTHY
Beyond the Blue Horizon/ $177 million in adjusted domestic grosses
Aloma of the South Seas/155 million
The Fleets In/155 million *
Hurricane/ 152 million
Rainbow Island/152 million
A Medal for Benny/105 million
St Louis Blues/104 million
*Golden Holden was in this one but had not yet become a star.
AVA
NIL Her highest grossing stand-alone film was The Naked Maja with an adjusted domestic Cogerson gross of $42.7 million
OVERALL COGERSON GROSSES IN ADJUSTED DOMESTIC DOLLARS
LAMOUR: $6.5 billion – Average $124.6 million
GARDNER $4.3 billion – average $107.7 million
NOTE
In the classic era most stars were usually joined by stars of importance in their movies but the litmus test was whether when the need arose he/she could carry a film solo. Lamour demonstrated she could whereas it seems Gardner was not able to do so. Also Ava was not known as an outstanding actress like Davis Katie Hep or Bergman so that even if you accept all the hype about her on the grounds of her beauty being justified there is still a respectable case for ranking Dottie above her and the latter was no ordinary looker either and indeed notorious womaniser Leslie Townes Hope is said to have found her “very sexy”
Bob, thanks for the added info. Dorothy Lamour was very attractive too I agree, but from a film history perspective it’s Ava Gardner who is the most glamorous, most famous and most iconic of the two, and she is a better actress than Lamour.
The bottom line is producers of 55 Days at Peking, Three Musketeers or The Rains of Ranchipur are more likely to cast Lana Turner or Ava Gardner in their movies than Lamour, Betty Grable or Jane Russell, regardless of the latters box office pull in b-movies of the 40s and 50s.
HI PHIL
1 Thanks for your detailed explanations about Gable. You’ve certainly defended your own choices with hard stats and that makes sense. I think that among Steve, you and I we’ve probably covered all the really big males stars who could realistically be regarded as being in contention for any Legend’s list and we can only now wait and see Flora’s take on the ladies’ side
2 One guy whom neither the people on this site nor the professional listers ever seem to mention is Mickey Rooney who was massive in the late 30s and the 1940s, particularly in harness with Judy Garland and in the Andy Hardy series. but seems to be one of those stars whose reputation has considerably diminished with time. Even he later in life laughed at the idea that he was once considered as being in the Gable/Tracy league.
Here is my own personal Top 25 Greatest Hollywood Actors list. All born before 1930.
I left out Olivier for being too British. Chaplin and Buster Keaton are out too. I’ve never found slapstick comedy particularly funny and if I had to choose I prefer Keaton, for his elaborate gags and dangerous stunts and for being unsentimental. I’ve left in Bob Hope but removed The Marx Bros, big favorites of mine but I had to be ruthless.
Sidney Poitier is a good actor but not as legendary as these gentlemen IMO. James Dean left his mark but he starred in just three films and the jury is still out on whether he would have grown into a major Hollywood star ala Paul Newman or Brando.
I should have totted up their top 10 movie scores to make it more interesting but I’m too lazy, maybe next time.
In alphabetical order –
Fred Astaire
Humphrey Bogart
Marlon Brando
James Cagney
Gary Cooper
Kirk Douglas
Errol Flynn
Henry Fonda
Glenn Ford
Clark Gable
Cary Grant
Charlton Heston
William Holden
Bob Hope
Gene Kelly
Alan Ladd
Burt Lancaster
Robert Mitchum
Gregory Peck
Tyrone Power
James Stewart
Robert Taylor
Spencer Tracy
John Wayne
Richard Widmark
I made a reply on the site index but see that the discussion has more properly moved to Bruce’s Top 50 Legends page. Very interesting list that I see you have made alphabetical. I’ve never agreed with the Marx Brothers being included. Too bad Frank Sinatra was not included. One name you left off which should be included is Poitier.
Well, I will start talking about the actresses after lunch time.
Hi Steve,
Great to have you chime into this by giving us your own list, which seems to be somewhere between Bob’s and mine. Just a few points:
While Olivier probably enjoys more recognition in the UK than in the US, I think he is pretty much internationally recognized as one of the greatest thespians of the 20th century, which explains his presence on the AFI list. The name “Laurence Olivier” is probably recognizable to many who has not even seen his films. However, I see your point, because in the US at least, Olivier was never a major box office attraction.
I agree that Poitier’s career was not quite as strong as most of the actors you have on your list, but his impact, in terms of opening up cinema to black actors and actresses, is truly legendary. Again, the name “Sidney Poitier”at least in North America is recognizable to many who may not even be familiar with his films. I agree with Flora here.
It seems I’m surrounded by fans of Richard Widmark and Alan Ladd, so I will be silent on the merits of their inclusion in your list 😉 But if you considered actors born before 1930, why did you leave out Paul Newman and Jack Lemmon?
1 PHIL I noticed that in your response to Steve you mentioned Alan Ladd, nicknamed Laddie by his great friend and frequent co-star William Bendix. I have long ago told this site that my own top 5 favourite male movie stars are in order Widmark, Peck, Stewart, Laddie and Morgan Freeman, though further down my list are Glenn Ford, Chuck Heston Mumbles, the Duke and Michael Caine aka Sir Maurice Micklewhite.
2 I did not include Laddie in my Top 25/26 because his combination of acting honours, classics and overall box office grosses made him just miss the cut in my opinion though he would be comfortably within my Top 35 if we went that far. [Neither did I give him credit for his Nevada Smith in The Carpetbaggers as that was outside the Classic Era]
3 A film historian said of Laddie “He was a great box office draw in all of the films in his heyday. We know that because there was usually nothing but him in them.” To me it is every bit the hallmark of a major star to be able to carry a long run of routinely entertaining films that make money –and for many people that’s what it’s all about – as it is to be part of an ensemble and/or an Oscar winner in a series of classic movies. Apparently not one of Ladd’s films in his top star period lost money and of course Shane has earned him cinematic mortality.
5 Accordingly whilst I did not put Alan in my own Top 25/26 what I have just said above would make it very difficult for me to argue that Steve did not have a respectable case for including Laddie in the Lensman Top 25.
Thanks Bob for copying the AFI discussion to this page. You make some good points about Laddie and Rooney’s diminishing standing over the years (as if he could even get shorter).
COPIED FROM SITE INDEX PAGE
BOB to PHIL
April 13, 2018 at 10:50 am
1/John Wayne
2/Charlie Chaplin
3/Clark Gable
4/Humphrey Bogart
5/Cary Grant
6/Bing Crosby
7/James Stewart
8/Gary Cooper
9/Spencer Tracy
10/Gregory Peck
11/Marlon Brando
12/Bob Hope
13/James Cagney
14/Tyrone Power
15/Fred Astaire
16/Charlton Heston
17/Errol Flynn
18/Frank Sinatra
19/Douglas Fairbanks Senior
20/Burt Lancaster
21/Glenn Ford
22/Rock Hudson
23/Richard Widmark
24/William Holden
25/Laurence Olivier and Marx Bros jointly
COPIED FROM SITE INDEX PAGE
PhilHOF17
April 13, 2018 at 7:04 pm
Hi Bob,
Thanks for you follow-up responses and providing us with the BFI top 25 male classic stars list ;). It is certainly a thought-provoking and defensible list. You have been very bold in performing major surgery on the AFI list by taking out 9 of their legends – Gene Kelly, Kirk Douglas, Orson Wells, James Dean, Sidney Poitier, Robert Mitchum, Buster Keaton, Edward G Robinson, and most surprisingly, Henry Fonda) – replacing them with Bing Crosby, Bob Hope, Tyrone Power, Charlton Heston, Errol Flynn, Frank Sinatra, Douglas Fairbanks Sr, Glenn Ford, Rock Hudson and Richard Widmark), while drastically re-ordering the others.
The list is interesting as I think it captures well, by and large, the relative popularity and box office success of these movie legends during their heydays, with a few possible exceptions: Widmark (as much as I like him as well and respect that he is your favorite actor) never enjoyed the popular success in the US and worldwide as these other stars – and in his peak years, Heston was not quite as big as most stars you have listed behind him, such as Frank Sinatra, Burt Lancaster and Rock Hudson.
Rather than knit-pick at your list, I will offer my own, noting that while it is not superior to yours, it is quite different, perhaps because like the AFI, I have put more weight than you have on the critical success, influence and long-term significance to cinema of these legendary actors (I have not included the Marx Brothers because of relatively few films and trying to limit this list to individuals):
1) James Stewart
2) Humphrey Bogart
3) Cary Grant
4) John Wayne
5) Marlon Brando
6) Charlie Chaplin
7) Gary Cooper
8) Spencer Tracy
9) Clark Gable
10) Henry Fonda
11) Fred Astaire
12) James Cagney
13) Gregory Peck
14) Laurence Olivier
15) Burt Lancaster
16) Gene Kelly
17) Kirk Douglas
18) Robert Mitchum
19) William Holden
20) Sidney Poitier
21) Richard Burton
22) Charlton Heston
23) Buster Keaton
24) Douglas Fairbanks Sr
25) Errol Flynn tied with Frank Sinatra ?
Incidentally, we have both kept the AFI’s cut-off of considering only actors who had made their film debut by 1950 or earlier – however, it is a bit strange to consider, say Poitier, Hudson, and Heston as eligible classic stars, but not their contemporaries such as Jack Lemmon and Paul Newman. Perhaps a true list of classic stars should be open to any actor who became major stars by the early/mid 1960s, which is when I think Hollywood started moving in the modern era.
HI GANG!
As Steve suggested I have just copied to this page my list and Phil’s so that the lists of all 4 of us are now on the correct page.
1 HI MO Good list and although as I told Phil I’ve reservations about Mitch and Kirk making the Top 25 [top 35 would have been more agreeable to me personally] I cannot quarrel that they are nonetheless true contenders. Also like Phil you have included all of my idols who were on the AFI list and you also provided me with the bonuses of Charlie Bill, Laddie and Dickie though for both of us Chuck was of course a “given”. Possibly my greatest surprise with your list is that there is no Crosby whereas I thought you were a “Bing Man”. Why is it that everyone but I have seemingly fallen out of love with the great Harry Lillis, once an American Institution? Even Bob Hope [rightly included by you] conceded Bing was the bigger star and deserved top billing in the Road pictures and “Leslie” was not known for his modesty!
2 ADDITIONAL RELATED TRIVIA. I’ve mentioned the Time magazine list of 100 Greatest People of the 20th Century which covered numerous types of professions and activities and included 4 mainstream movie stars. It too of course had its critics but it always seemed to me that the greatest omission was Elvis. Time wasn’t of course comparing apples with apples across the board and initially split the 100 into 10 sections with 10 entries in each section. In the case of the 4 movie stars Charlie was included as the greatest COMEDIAN and SILENT STAR, Mumbles was in as an ACTOR, and Marilyn was perceived as the most influential ACTRESS and SEX SYMBOL but Sinatra was there as a SINGER. I have always thought that Elvis was as big as any singer that ever lived and I see that the Top guy responsible for the final selections in the Time list has apologised for the exclusion of King Presley so it’s never too late for Bruce to apologise to us for some of his decisions about exclusions/inclusions!
3 TOTALLY UNRELATED TRIVIA. In the Sherlock Holmes stories Watson expressed great astonishment at one day being told by Holmes that he not only had the latter a brother but a “smarter brother” [Mycroft Holmes politician]. When the good doctor enquired why Mycroft too hadn’t made a name for himself as a great detective Sherlock replied that his brother was too lazy to do the actual leg work that the trade required. I see that you admit to being too lazy to attach scores to your legends listings so could it be that this site actually has a “smarter Work Horse” who simply cannot be bothered to put in the great efforts that the existing holder of that title applies?
Good post Bob. I’ve copied and pasted my Top 25 list to this page.
AFI greats I’ve left off my list – Olivier, Poitier, Welles, Chaplin, Keaton, Dean, Robinson and The Marx Brothers.
I did have Sinatra on my list but replaced him with Robert Taylor at the last minute.
Bob Hope is the odd one out on my list, the only comedian.
I’m assuming the AFI list is for ‘Hollywood’ greats, which makes sense being it’s the ‘American Film Institute’, was Olivier a Hollywood star in the same way David Niven was? Not sure. Looking at the Actress Top 25, Sophia Loren seems like the odd one out, her filmography is predominantly European films but she did appear in some big Hollywood productions. I would have replaced her with Myrna Loy.
A top 30 would have been better, than I would have included Sinatra and Crosby.
Bob, I’m not lazy when creating videos, but when it comes to lists and charts… funny when I was younger I was always making lists. I had binders filled with all kinds of lists and indexes. I’m just glad the internet exists and contains all the lists and charts you can possibly want. Bruce’s UMR is a treasure trove of facts and figures.
HI MYCROFT
A pal of mine is a fanatical list-maker and when his children were young he even had on his large locked pantry door lists of their treats inside the pantry such as crisps and sweets and every time they withdrew a treat it would be crossed off the list.
He has envelopes pinned above each of his mod-cons [fridge, washing machine, dishwasher etc] and in each envelope is money which is the reserved budget to repair that machine if it breaks down or to replace it if it needs replaced.
He has huge freezers and buys all his food in bulk to save money. Probably only our Work Horse could equal him as an organised person and as both of them are in the teaching profession exceptional organisational skills may well be in the DNA of such beings!