55 thoughts on “Hirschhorn’s Ratings vs UMR’s Ratings”

1. Cogerson

   Bill James being mentioned brings up a thought on your, or any, rating system. James criticized another rating system for using average and below average ratings of baseball players. He pointed that any player who plays has value to his team or he wouldn’t be playing, and most teams which win do so with at least some below average players in the lineup. I think this is true of movies in a way also. An actor shouldn’t be penalized for making some below average or even “bad” movies. What matters is only how much good stuff he does. Anyone can produce nothing and nothing is always nothing, but even a bad movie might have its fans. So I would dispute dragging actors down with “average” ratings.

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   1. JOHN

      1 Good stuff.

      2 In addition to the points you make I think that where a professional reviewer is going to criticise a movie or star he/she should make the case on the basis of his/her own observations and analysis. and relevant known facts To throw in for example the apparently poor opinion that Frank Sinatra had of Marlon Brando with whom Frankie apparently had considerable axes to grind is not in my view the most professional manner in which to buttress a review or profile.

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   2. Hey John. I agree that James thought every player brought value…..and I agree with about an actors contribution to movies……but….James did lots of lists…..and he always listed those at the top of the mountain, as well as those down at the bottom. Any MLB player is a great player….but the Hall of Fame only puts in the best of the best. If there was a Hollywood Hall of Fame (rumors one is coming)….I think almost all of the Top UMR average people would be first ballot Hall of Famers. James Dean and Grace Kelly would be the Gale Sayers of movies….accomplishing much in a short period of time….better yet…sticking with baseball….they would be the Sandy Koufax of movies.

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2. HELLO MR COGERSON
   1 I DID note the high ranking that your own scores gave Brando and I have always generally found your scores and rankings as reasonable and often exceptionally observant, though I would hope the [to me] surprising influence on you of a man who was possibly a bigot was not the deciding factor in your critic/audience panel’s tendency at times to give relatively lower rankings to recognised classics like A Place in the Sun.

   2 When political opinion pollsters all produce identical predictions for forthcoming elections they are often suspected of comfortable “herding” – ie collaborating with each other to ensure nobody is left out on a limb. We don’t want the herding of critical opinion about movies and stars as a broad spread of genuine views in such matters is quite healthy. However after a few reasonably well observed opening paragraphs Hirschhorn’s article on Brando struck me as being perhaps a spiteful rant [for whatever reason] which was devoid of any attempt at being fair and reasonable and in fact everything bur the kitchen sink was thrown at poor Marlon. For example
   (1) Joel banally repeats trivial gossip that Sinatra called MB “Mumbles”. Many historians and columnists whom I have read have also made that assertion but most of them are careful to add that Sinatra was turned down for the lead in Waterfront in favour of Brando and that Frankie was also allegedly after Stanley in the Streetcar movie and the Sky Masterson part in Guys and Dolls as that was the lead. By all accounts Sinatra was not a man to take rejection with good grace.
   (2) Joel does not seem to me to be a particularly well-informed ‘guru’ and when he mentions Brando being the problem with Apocalypse Now he may have been unaware of Professor Mizruchi’s knowledge of another possible side to the story of the goings on in the production of Apocalypse Now. However it seems to be well documented that Coppola [like the Salkinds in relation to the 1978 Superman] tried to cheat MB out of a share of the legally bound profits of Apocalypse Now and that Brando was obliged to take our law suits against Frances and the Salkind Bros which resulted in two out of court settlements amounting overall to somewhere between 75 and 85 million in 2017 dollars. Yet it seems that nowhere in his tirade against Brando did Joel attempt to examine whether Brando on occasions might have been the one sinned against and instead Hirschhorn seemed quite content to blindly buy into one-sided possibly prejudiced gossip.

   3 Joel also seems fond of sweeping statements “Nobody cared for Desiree or Brando’s portrayal of Napoleon.” Wrong Joel – Lord Olivier for one thought it a magnificent performance and the American cinema-going public flocked to see the movie which in fact out-grossed even the mint-making On the Waterfront. However possibly to you Joel the paying public equates with “nobody” Anyway Bruce you also tell us that Roger Ebert has been a great influence on you and his view of MB is so far apart from Joel’s that it is impossible for both of them to have been correct in their take on old Mumbles. The biggest mystery to me though is why a normally sensible and balanced ‘guru’ like you Bruce thought it a good idea to place alongside your own scores those of an apparently either biased or out-of-touch person like Hirschhorn.

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   1. APOCALYPSE NOW (1979) – HISTORICAL CORRECTIONS AND AMPLIFICATION

      1 The part of Kurtz fitted Brando like a glove and the Kurtz Brando delivers is enigmatic symbolising both the American ideal and its abyss. Much preparation went into it and in taped recordings an exhausted Brando is heard saying to Coppola “Francis I’ve gone as far as I can and if you want more get another actor. “

      2 Historians have opined that Coppola couldn’t complain about the shoot going over schedule since Brando rewrote the movie for him. An audio recording finds Brando discussing his contributions to the script: “I told Francis, ‘You’re making an enormous error. This guy Kurtz, don’t misuse him.’ I rewrote the entire script and I have it all on tape. I have a tape of everything.” said Brando

      3 Despite the production’s travails, “Apocalypse Now” went on to earn eight Academy Award nominations, including Best Picture, Best Director and Best Adapted Screenplay — but Brando’s contributions to the latter element were never officially recognized. Brando’s performance was snubbed, too, despite MUCH ACCLAIM from renowned critics. However in recent times Coppola himself described it as one of the IMMORTAL performances in the history of movies and certainly the performances and the dazzling film-making technique have stood the test of time

      4 Francis who had been near meltdown about the many problems piling up in the making of the movie complained that his reported comments about Brando’s behaviour and contribution in relation to Apocalypse Now had been “taken out of context” and he wrote a personal letter of apology to Marlon about the ‘misunderstanding’. MORAL LESSON OF ALL THIS – Joel Hirschhorn “believe nothing of what you hear and only half of what you see,” [Burt Lancaster The Crimson Pirate 1952]

      POSTSCRIPT
      MY apology to Coppola for spelling his Christian name as “Frances” in a previous post.

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      1. Hey Bob….I am sure Mr. Coppola forgives you for a spelling mistake. The behind the scenes movie of A. Now is a great watch. Brando’s performance is memorable….just not as memorable as Harrison Ford’s performance as the intel officer at the beginning…..lol.

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   2. Hey Stonewall…great counterpoints to Joel’s thinking…it is a shame that he is not here to defend his thoughts more. In fairness to Joel….when he put his book together….nobody had thought to rank all movies…..plus the sources were limited compared to today. I have made mention before about his low opinion of Brando….just this way….you can appreciate UMR Scores more….lol.

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3. I really did think Elvis was at the top here Bruce, I wasn’t fooling around in the previous post. I just couldn’t accept Leslie Howard, of all people, at the top, with Thelma Ritter at no.2. It’s hilarious.

   I can see why Bob took umbrage at this latest chart, his idol Brando resting near the bottom and Myrna Loy comfortably near the top. It’s a cruel world. 😉

   Even worse than seeing Mr. Mumbles getting short shrift on the ‘Star Score’ is Big John Wayne, almost last, I don’t think Mr. Hirschhorn was a fan of Hollywoods most popular actor, or his films.

   On the other hand it was cool seeing The Marx Brothers topping some Hollywood heavyweights. “I find television very educating. Every time somebody turns on the set, I go into the other room and read a book.” Groucho

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   1. Hey Steve…glad the new columns helped the table make more sense….for the record….like Brando…I gave your boy Elvis more credit than a Hirschhorn did.

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4. Dear Mr Cogerson

   1 If you look again at the table you will see that our Brando Top 10 films are listed in chronological order and we have not attempted to rank them against each other though we would certainly agree with your UMR score which places Godfather above the other 9 in our table.

   2 You may wish to note however as a matter of interest that the star himself is on record as declaring the 1969 Burn [aka Queimada] as his favourite among all of his own films and you are not totally out of sync with him in that respect as you place Burn as MB’s 10th best film artistically with a healthy 76% rating. He also seems to have been particularly attached to Guys and Dolls despite Hirschhorn’s views as on Brando’s death that movie was the only one found
   among his DVD/collection which otherwise was totally comprised of silent comedies such as those of Chaplin and the Keystone Kops

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5. Female on the Beach
   TO: MR JOEL HIRSCHHORN
   FROM: INDIEWIRE SITE
   The 10 Greatest Performances of Marlon Brando

   1/a Streetcar Named Desire (1951)
   2/Julius Caesar (1953)
   3/On the Waterfront (1954)
   4/The Wild One (1954)
   5/Sayonara (1957)
   6/The Godfather (1972)
   7Last Tango in Paris (1972)
   8/Apocalypse Now (1979) ***
   9/The Freshman (1990)
   10/The Score (2001)

   ***As the mad Col Kurtz Brando exudes an intoxicating mixture of epic grandeur and real, human pain (who can forget his snarling to Martin Sheen’s Captain Willard that the young man is little more than an “errand boy sent by grocery clerks”?) Film lore goes that, in addition to his already-infamous bouts of erratic behavior, Brando also showed up to the shoot of “Apocalypse” drastically overweight, thus forcing Coppola to shoot his scenes with his star just so in hopes of concealing the actor’s ungainly physique. But whatever unspeakable madness Brando did during the making of this film — arguably Coppola’s best — is right up there on the screen for us to marvel at. In a career of big turns, this is one of the biggest, and definitely one of the scariest.
   NOTE: This is just one of many contemporary reviews that praise Brando’s performance in Apocalypse Now

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   1. I can buy that Brando Top 10. Though The Godfather at 6 seems low. Thanks for sharing this information.

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      1. Cogerson

         Hirschhorn lost me by giving the 1953 Julius Caesar only three stars. I’m sorry, but that is a four star movie for me if there ever was one.

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         1. Hey John…..Hirschhorn rated each performance in the movie. He gave James Mason 4 stars for his performance in Julius Caesar. I actually agree with him, as I think Mason gives the best performance in the movie. Brando is fine….but almost invisible in the first half of the movie.

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            1. Cogerson

               If I understand you, Hirschhorn is rating Brando’s performance *** rather than the movie. I certainly think Mason (and Gielgud) gave a **** performance.

               “Brando is fine . . . but almost invisible in the first half of the play.”
               Well, that is the role. Antony probably has fewer lines in the early part of the play than not only Casca and Decius Brutus but a number of other minor characters. But after the assassination, he comes front and center and Brando is electric.

               As for giving Brando a *** rating for this performance, I think I will let Mark Antony sum it up–“This foul deed shall smell above the earth.”

               *PS–Julius Caesar is my favorite of all plays.

            2. Hey John…good point about Anthony’s role in Julius Caesar.

               For fun I looked up all the stars in Julius Caesar that Hirschhorn has in his book.

               James Mason 4 stars
               John Gielgud 4 stars
               Marlon Brando 3 stars
               Edmond O’Brien 3 stars
               Greer Garson 3 stars
               Deborah Kerr 3 stars

               So you and he agree on Mason and Gielgud

            3. Cogerson

               I just re-watched Julius Caesar a couple of weeks ago (the play is in the news),
               and I was thinking about it later while exercising with my mind wandering, and did what Hirschhorn (I am unfamiliar with him or his book) did and rated the performances, but on an A to F scale. These are my ratings.

               Brando—A
               Mason—A
               Gielgud—A
               Calhern—C
               O’Brien—C
               Garson—B
               Kerr—C

               Why did Garson do a bit better even with such a small role. It was not only her acting, but her presence. She just impresses me as being everything one would expect Caesar’s wife to be. She had that patrician bearing.

            4. Hey John and Bob…and maybe even Steve…..Hirschhorn’s Book is worth $3.63

               https://www.amazon.com/Rating-Movie-Stars-Joel-Hirschhorn/dp/0517414449

               I smile when I realize the picture Amazon is using is my picture.

            5. Hey John…..Thanks for the individual reviews on Julius Caesar….I am sure Bob is happy to see you upgrading Brando from a 3 star performance to 4 star performance.

               Unknown fact. Knowing that Hirschhorn gives different scores by performances in the same movie….UMR.com does the same thing….based on awards…for example….one of my favorites…Pulp Fiction

               Quentin Tarantino – UMR Score of 89.74…..won an Oscar for the movie
               John Travolta – UMR Score of 86.74….nominated for Oscar and Golden Globe
               Samuel L. Jackson – UMR Score of 86.74….nominated for Oscar and Golden Globe
               Uma Thurman – UMR Score of 86.74….nominated for Oscar and Golden Globe
               Lawrence Bender – UMR Score of 85.49….nominated for Oscar only
               Bruce Willis – UMR Score of 80.99……not nominated

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